FICHET F3D

[greyman]

I've extracted two images from the FR 02864134 B1 patent (pages 29 and 30). I had to reposition them so that the cog is in the middle of the picture in both images. I also rubbed out the extra lines.

If you save these images and flick between them in the windows previewer, you will notice that the sliders 45 on the right both slide together while the sliders on the left (34 and 44) both slide in opposite directions. It's not immediately clear to me which is the open position, but image 2 comes after image 1 in the patent. In image 1 all the sliders are off centre but the twin gears are together (teeth lined up). In image 2, all the sliders are central but the gears are now out of mesh. The key drives only the front gear via the keyway insert. I imagine that the back gear is rotating by being pushed by one of the rear sliders but I don't quite understand this yet. I also don't know what happens when the sliders line up - they must somehow clear a blocking bar in the lock. On page 36 of the patent there is what could be such a bar but its interaction with the other components is not clear to me. It also has some notches in it that remind me of the disc blocking mechanism in the Fichet 787.

What do people think? Am I on the right track here?

[mh]

Thanks for the next patent, did you find more?
It's interesting to see how these patents evolved, the first two were obviously incomplete, now the 34 pieces were added, which are apparently the sliders.

The little protrusion from the 34 pieces seem to go into one of the 353 notches, and I would assume that only one of the 353 notches lets them go through. That would be the pump action.

The other brackets (44 and 45) seem to ride on the long 35 pieces but don't necessarily move, do they? I'd rather think the gear wheel moves instead, together with the key. But maybe the brackets can move a little, too? After all, it's a FICHET...

Cheers,
mh

[jpb06080]

I was just in france and got to see a good deal of fichet. Only problem was, I couldn't buy anything from any locksmiths I met because I don't know how to say "used" in french, and everything new was upwards of 300 euro for the cylinder alone. Does anyone know where I can find used/inexpensive fichet of any style? You'd think that at least the style with the I shaped keyway that they once used in New York would be around.

Thanks

[Jaakko]

Only problem was, I couldn't buy anything from any locksmiths I met because I don't know how to say "used" in french

Little offtopic, but this just reinforced my stereotypic frenchman: doesn't want to speak English

[quintaux]

mistake: we are too afraid of making sense against.
(erreur: nous avons trop peur de faire des contre sens)

[quintaux]

the F3D is a beautiful mechanical but it nevertheless two loophole:
- the triangular shape of the canal, which can pass several tools.
- lateral movement lining all parrallèle.

(le F3D est une belle mécanique mais elle comporte néamoins deux faille:
-la forme triangulaire du canal,pouvant laisser passer plusieurs outils.
-le mouvement latérale des garnitures tous parrallèle.)

[greyman]

Only problem was, I couldn't buy anything from any locksmiths I met because I don't know how to say "used" in french

Little offtopic, but this just reinforced my stereotypic frenchman: doesn't want to speak English

It's usually more complicated than that. Many French people can speak English, but to varying degrees. For a professional discussion, such as locksmithing, you won't find many French locksmiths who speak English (check out quintaux, for example ). The real problem is that they would not give a special price to a stranger and, in general, locksmiths don't sell second hand goods over the counter. You're better off trying ebay. By the way, 2nd hand is "d'occasion" in French, but I don't think you'll find any F3D in this state, just yet

[greyman]

the F3D is a beautiful mechanical but it nevertheless two loophole:
- the triangular shape of the canal, which can pass several tools.
- lateral movement lining all parrallèle.

(le F3D est une belle mécanique mais elle comporte néamoins deux faille:
-la forme triangulaire du canal,pouvant laisser passer plusieurs outils.
-le mouvement latérale des garnitures tous parrallèle.)

Quintaux - thanks for the interesting points, but we are getting close to advanced material here. Please don't talk about bypass tecnniques for F3D or the discussion may be moved to the advanced thread.

(Merci de ne pas discuter des techniques avancees - sinon, le fil de discussion risque d'etre demenage dans la partie restreinte du forum)

[jpb06080]

Yeah, I found the french locksmiths to be very nice and eager to teach/help out. It was tough to discuss locksmithing however, since the terms are generally so technical. While I was in Paris, I met twice with the distributor of Medeco for France and Belgium. Awesome guy who couldn't have been more helpful/interesting. He had the full medeco line, as well as European high security systems as far as the eye could see. When he found out I was an apprentice, not just a hobbyist, he loaded me up with a bunch of free cylinders too! Of course other guys did seem a bit irritated to be talking to someone who spoke english every 3rd word.

[greyman]

OK, so I finally got a price on a Fichet F3D cylinder from a French locksmith. It is less than the ridiculous installed price (500 euros ++), but still a shock The lock seems to retail in the range of 250 euros, but when you add TVA (tax) and freight, etc, you are well over 300 euros. This is way higher than I am prepared to pay. So, sorry to say, it'll be a while before I get to posting any pictures. I'm still hoping to pick one up a bit cheaper than full retail price, so wish me luck...

Any French locksmiths out there that want to do a deal? Please send me a personal mail (PM).

[workstation]

Have you had any luck with this, greyman?

I'm *extremely* curious about this lock. I tend to think it could be either very secure indeed or completely rubbish.

I'm surprised they've gone down this route of making a whole new lock. The Fichet 787 is so very very clever (the detent and anti-pressure systems, the side bar at right angles to the norm hence protecting against drilling etc), that I would have thought it far safer/easier to just add some spurious moving piece to the key to extend patent protection like the Assa Abloy brands seem to have done than to take a risk with a whole new locking principle.

I was thinking maybe the two sets of rotors disengage before the combination is read, preventing feedback-based decoding? But I have no idea.

Really really curious.

[greyman]

Have you had any luck with this, greyman?

I'm *extremely* curious about this lock. I tend to think it could be either very secure indeed or completely rubbish.

I'm surprised they've gone down this route of making a whole new lock. The Fichet 787 is so very very clever (the detent and anti-pressure systems, the side bar at right angles to the norm hence protecting against drilling etc), that I would have thought it far safer/easier to just add some spurious moving piece to the key to extend patent protection like the Assa Abloy brands seem to have done than to take a risk with a whole new locking principle.

I was thinking maybe the two sets of rotors disengage before the combination is read, preventing feedback-based decoding? But I have no idea.

Really really curious.

Lucky I was browsing this thread, as the autonotification doesn't seem to work any more. I still haven't forked out the necessary cash for one of these beasties - they are just a little too expensive for me right now.

On your comment about the 787 - Fichet replaced this lock because it had a few weak points, as always. It's not appropriate to discuss that here, but Fichet is always developing a new mechanism, and I guess they had milked the 787 design through the S and Z variants for all it was worth. They F3D looks like a fantastic design. It'll be a while before us "hackers" get our hands on them, mainly due to the price!

[greyman]

So far, all I have got is a couple of photos of a F3D cylinder and keys, from a colleague who was lucky enough to obtain one. It's a start though...

[n2oah]

On your comment about the 787 - Fichet replaced this lock because it had a few weak points, as always. It's not appropriate to discuss that here, but Fichet is always developing a new mechanism, and I guess they had milked the 787 design through the S and Z variants for all it was worth. They F3D looks like a fantastic design. It'll be a while before us "hackers" get our hands on them, mainly due to the price!

At least the 787 didn't have gaping security hole like the 480s did. Beautiful pictures, they really whet my intrest!

[raimundo]

Is that fifty euros to copy a key, or to replace a lost one with a creditcard ?
The high price will keep this one out of the hands of pickers until they start showing up remodeling dumpsters.