Ingersoll key number

[mhole]

For as long as I've known about the Ingersoll 10 lever locks, and that they each had a unique key number, I've assumed that the number is an opaque code - ie: the numbers are references to a database containing all the differs, and there is no way to discover the bitting from the code.

However, I have heard of somebody who claims to have 'cracked' the code, and is thus able to cut keys by code. I am very suspicious that this person has actually managed to get hold of a copy of the Ingersoll database (or card file - this was around in the 50's!) and is reluctant to admit it.

Has anyone out there worked out how the code is derived? I fail to see how the bitting of a key which has 10 wafers, each a possible 4 heights, can be encoded in a 6 digit number. I also find it hard to believe that if one person has figured this out, others haven't, and I'd expect to find at least 1 company offering the information for use with key machines.

Any thoughts?

[dls]

Google the German enigma machine from ww2 and see how they cracked the code if you think this is silly think again.
one way they cracked some was because transmissions often ended in heil hitlar this repetition was a weakness.
If you get enough info from old locks by getting the bitting code from the key and the numbers (this assumes the numbers actually mean something) you may be able to find patterns or groups of patterns which can give you what you want.
How the codes are generated is anyones guess it could be a mathematical formula applied to the date and time of production for example lets say we have a 5 pin lock and its 10.15 am on the 05.12.99

This would give you 1015051299

Break this down into 10 15 05 12 99

Then break this down into single digits between 0 and 9 to give 10 differs in the pins by dividing each number by 10 and rounding up to the next whole number 9.9 would be 0 and so would 9.1

What we would get is 10=1, 15=1.5=2, 05=0.5=1, 12=1.2=2, 99=9.9=0

The bitting code would be 12120

11.45 on 23.03.11 would be 25312

this is only an example because one made at 12.48 on 24.09.19 would also be 25312

[MacGyver101]

? I fail to see how the bitting of a key which has 10 wafers, each a possible 4 heights, can be encoded in a 6 digit number.

There may be two possibilities.

If I recall correctly, Ingersoll locks don't have any MACS restriction, which means that any of the 4 possible heights can be used in any of the 10 wafer positions. If so, there are ( 4^10 = 1,048,576 ) possible key cuts -- which is more than the 1-million cuts you could encode in a six-digit number (000000-999999), but not that many more (not quite 5%).

The first scenario I could imagine is that, even with no MACS restriction, they might have some factory coding rules that restrict things, like:

• the amount of repitition in the biting (e.g., they probably won't allow keys cut to "1111111111", "222222222", "1212121212", etc.);
• they may have limits on adjacent shallow cuts in the first position(s), so as not to weaken the key;
• they may prohibit cuts like "1111223333" that could end up with a key that can be accidentally pulled out of the lock when the cylinder's only partially rotated.

A few restrictions like those could easily eliminate 5% of the possible keys, which gets you down into the million-keys / six-digits territory.

The alternative is that they may also be encoding the biting into the letter in the key code. I only have one Ingersoll lock, so I only have one sample key code to look at -- but it has a letter in the middle (144S868). I'm assuming that the "S" describes the keyway... but if you had two letters for every keyway you could encode 2-million possible keys with the numbers and letters -- which is far more "space" than you'd need. However, that seems like it would be awkward: nobody would want to keep remembering that "S" and "T" blanks were actually the same? I think the first situation is more likely.

So, that doesn't get you any closer to knowing how Ingersoll generates their key codes -- but I would believe that, with a few simple factory restrictions on disallowed combinations, you could easily have a direct mapping between every "permitted" cut and a unique 6-digit number.

If that's all true, and if they didn't make any effort to shuffle the actual key cuts before numbering them, then it might not be that hard to guess at the factory restrictions and reverse-engineer their mapping.

[MacGyver101]

...or, of course, there's the third option: someone leaked the guy a copy of the list.

[mhole]

Thanks for the input guys.

To clarify, I know that the key code maps directly to a list of cuts, I'm mostly interested in whether that mapping can be deciphered without access to a database or card file. I'm sceptical, as this is the kind of industry where people work this stuff out for kicks, so I'd expect it to be widespread knowledge if it could be cracked.

I can clarify that the letters in the code relate to the key way, and there are as many letters as there are keyways - S, A, N, M, & D (iirc). D isn't really in the same family, as it uses a longer blank with different spacing, but it's still a 10 lever cylinder with the code in the same format of 123 A 456. M is the master keyed section, and has a different convention of 12 M 345.

The most helpful response would be someone saying 'Sure it's possible - I did it, here's how' or 'No, it's a database - an opaque code - I saw the file in 1975 when I worked for Ingersoll', but I'm interested in your thoughts.

Cheers!

[Rickthepick]

Id say its more likely they got hold of a database or manual.

I knew an ex army security specialist that briefly showed me his training manual once from the 70's.
There was a lot of data on chubb castle (110) and ingersoll locks in there, opening them, installation requirements etc etc all with 'classified' and other scary words written in the footer and highlighted.

What it shows is people hang on to restricted and confidential information and it may be that your friend discovered something similar.

I cant see it being a direct relation though, just a catalogue of printed data.

[exspook]

That would have been a SEAP (Security Equipment) manual as both those locks are used by the MOD/GOV etc

I have a few of these locks and will take a look.

They do pick OK