Pick legality issues resolved

[locfoc]

[quote="oi_punk"]I have ben picking locks for a little over 4years now. I live in Washington state, i got stopped by a cop,
when i had 1-pick on me. i got a misdemeanor ticket for it i just got it settled thou the courts. i had no intent on using it ,but that didn't matter to the copper. i would suggest not caring picks on your person unless you are a licensed locksmith. a word to the wise[/quote]

sounds smart to me

[vmikulich]

[quote="shararm"]I live in CA and i cant find anything about the law on lockpicks if anybody knows anything please tell me.[/quote]


In California Lock picks and other "burglary tools" are governed by penal code 466:

"Every person having upon him or her in his or her possession a picklock, crow, keybit, crowbar, screwdriver, vise grip pliers, water-pump pliers, slidehammer, slim jim, tension bar, lock pick gun, tubular lock pick, bump key, floor-safe door puller, master key, ceramic or porcelain spark plug chips or pieces, or other instrument or tool with intent feloniously to break or enter into any building, railroad car, aircraft, or vessel, trailer coach, or vehicle as defined in the Vehicle Code, or who shall knowingly make or alter, or shall attempt to make or alter, any key or other instrument named above so that the same will fit or open the lock of a building, railroad car, aircraft, vessel, trailer coach, or vehicle as defined in the Vehicle Code, without being requested to do so by some person having the right to open the same, or who shall make, alter, or repair any instrument or thing, knowing or having reason to believe that it is intended to be used in committing a misdemeanor or felony, is guilty of a misdemeanor. Any of the structures mentioned in Section 459 shall be deemed to be a building within the meaning of this section."

Essentially mere possession of lock picks is NOT enough for a police officer to arrest an individual. There must be INTENT to use the lock picks to commit a misdemeanor or felony (such as burglary).

For example if an officer recognizes a "suspicious person" near a bunch of closed businesses he may do a "consensual encounter." He may even ask the "suspicious person" if he may search him. If the guy agrees and the officer uncovers lock picks there is no crime committed. But if the person lies about there use, there is probably enough "articulable facts" to arrest the person for burglary tools (PC 466).

Conversely, in the same situation, if the suspicious person says, "These are lock picks. I belong to a club of guys who picks locks as a hobby. I work down the street, and am going to one of my buddies house to practice," there aren't enough 'articulable facts" to arrest based on PC 466. The officer might actually offer to drop him off at his buddies house to check his story, but shouldn't arrest him as there is not intent to commit a crime using the lock picks. If the officer finds the club of guys at the house he most certainly must leave the suspicious person alone as an arrest would not have the elements of the crime which is "possession of a burglary tool with INTENT to commit a misdemeanor or felony."

To sum up: in California you can possess lock picks and just about any "bypass tool" you can think of. You can even carry them on your person without ever committing a crime (unlike carrying a loaded firearm without a permit). But if there are enough circumstances for the officer to infer you have "intent" to commit burglary you will be arrested. You may not be convicted but you will be arrested.

[jeffm]

[quote="LockNewbie21"]Okay, Washinton DC is the only place i know its illegal to carry and lockpicking instrument at all without a liscence or its afelony. [/quote]

If I remember correctly, it is also illegal to carry lock picking tools in Calgary, Alberta (in Canada).

[raimundo]

Holy crap, if you live in california, you could be arrested for having a vicegrip pliers in your pocket? Yeah, I know, prove intent, but really, mentioning them in the actual statute, along with other things that I had never heard of, like floorsafe door pullers,
and whats up with the pieces of sparkplug, I have heard some say that such things are useful for breaking the glass on autos in situations like a car sinking in water.

[LTblueknight]

Yes, I actually had my dad ask his lawyer for me.

Where I live (Edmonton, Alberta - Canada), what the law says about having lockpicks is VERY ambiguous (I think it says something like "if you have them, you're in big trouble" but it's only mentioned under the section called "Breaking and Entering"... so what exactly does that mean for someone who is using them responsibly?).

Anyways, the lawyer basically said that there's no problem in having them, or even using them.. but you would NOT want to be caught with them. So good news: don't give a cop a reason to search you, and you can go a lifetime with picks in your pocket and not catch a bit of heat for it.

I'd be particularly interested in that neat-o credit card set you see on some websites.. I heard somewhere that a cop can't look in your wallet. Not sure if it's true or not. And I'm not sure if those picks are any good either.

Anyways, hope you found this helpful. Of course, I'm just a guy on the internet. You should check it out for yourself before you trust this information, and remember that laws vary from place to place.

[mr_chris79]

CAn anyone help me please? im moving to Grand Cayman for two months in two weeks and id like to know if i can take a small southord set with me to practice, ive tried emailing a locksmith out there but he thinks lockpicks may be restricted items and i shouldnt bring them with me on the plane through customs unless i can prove im a locksmith, how exactly can the Cayman customs prove im not a locksmith in the UK if i did take them? i mean if i do a course over here the certificate isnt worth anything as its whoever ive done a course with that prints it, is there a worldwide database you go on after doing one of these 3 day nde courses in england? because ive heard that having a certificate from a 3 day trainer simply means that the individual training company thinks you are confident enough and their certification isnt really worth the paper its printed on?. Thanks for any help you guys can give me!

[unlisted]

Yes, I actually had my dad ask his lawyer for me.

Where I live (Edmonton, Alberta - Canada), what the law says about having lockpicks is VERY ambiguous (I think it says something like "if you have them, you're in big trouble" but it's only mentioned under the section called "Breaking and Entering"... so what exactly does that mean for someone who is using them responsibly?).

Anyways, the lawyer basically said that there's no problem in having them, or even using them.. but you would NOT want to be caught with them. So good news: don't give a cop a reason to search you, and you can go a lifetime with picks in your pocket and not catch a bit of heat for it.

I'd be particularly interested in that neat-o credit card set you see on some websites.. I heard somewhere that a cop can't look in your wallet. Not sure if it's true or not. And I'm not sure if those picks are any good either.

Anyways, hope you found this helpful. Of course, I'm just a guy on the internet. You should check it out for yourself before you trust this information, and remember that laws vary from place to place.

Lol.. Man, I love lawyers, they keep bending and twisting the law as they see fit.

In Alberta you must be a locksmith to posses lockpicks. End of story. You can and will be charged if you do not have a government locksmith certificate/license/whatever they call it.

viewtopic.php?p=19444

https://www.solgps.alberta.ca/programs_ ... miths.aspx

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs ... bo-ga:l_IX (search for 353 and on..)
Also, do not forget, you can easily be charged with section 351, anywhere in Canada.

And police can look in your wallet if they see fit. (police can search anywhere with cause) It only when you start getting to a strip search/cavity search that things need to happen in a different manner. But yes, if a police officer just does a "random search" of a person (which can and does happen) they can look in your pockets. wallet, backpack, inside shoes, pat you down, etc.

IMHO, it sounds like the lawyer is trying to line up a new unsuspecting "client" with his "interpretation" of the law. He summarized it best when he used the word "but" (don't get caught)with you. I could make the exact same argument as your lawyer with marijuana, its illegal, but if your not "caught" with it.. Than you have nothing to worry about. See where this is going?

...heh...

CAn anyone help me please? im moving to Grand Cayman for two months in two weeks and id like to know if i can take a small southord set with me to practice, ive tried emailing a locksmith out there but he thinks lockpicks may be restricted items and i shouldnt bring them with me on the plane through customs unless i can prove im a locksmith, how exactly can the Cayman customs prove im not a locksmith in the UK if i did take them? i mean if i do a course over here the certificate isnt worth anything as its whoever ive done a course with that prints it, is there a worldwide database you go on after doing one of these 3 day nde courses in england? because ive heard that having a certificate from a 3 day trainer simply means that the individual training company thinks you are confident enough and their certification isnt really worth the paper its printed on?. Thanks for any help you guys can give me!

Well, as some have mentioned the law differs everywhere you go. Even within countries.. heh.

I'd recommend if you do have some type of certificate you bring that along as proof, and maybe take only the lockpicks you would not mind losing.. Just in case.

I've taken picks across the pond, and also other items I was sure would raise a few eyebrows on International Flights, Customs, etc. The stuff I was expecting a hassle from, I got none. The stuff I did not expect a hassle from, caused a hassle. Who knew?

[mr_chris79]

Cheers Unlisted! only problem is i dont have any kind of certificate yet...grumble grumble no picking for two months!! aarrrgh!

[unlisted]

Don't know exactly where you are going, so I cannot offer you "good" advice, but personally, I'd bring a few picks that you would not mind getting "tossed out"-Just toss them in your computer bag, along with all the cables in a small sandwich bag. (that is what I did with mine, and they even looked at them, and passed by them w/o a second glance.)

Not exactly about picks, but close: Best part when I went overseas, I had a few handcuff keys hidden on me I had forgot about (in wallet, and other places)- alarms did go off, they could not find them- I forgot they were there as well. It was not until I was back from my vacation (2 separate international flights) that I noticed they were still in their hiding spots. (yes, they were all worn on my person when going through security, and they were metal keys)

[mr_chris79]

Don't know exactly where you are going, so I cannot offer you "good" advice, but personally, I'd bring a few picks that you would not mind getting "tossed out"-Just toss them in your computer bag, along with all the cables in a small sandwich bag. (that is what I did with mine, and they even looked at them, and passed by them w/o a second glance.)

Not exactly about picks, but close: Best part when I went overseas, I had a few handcuff keys hidden on me I had forgot about (in wallet, and other places)- alarms did go off, they could not find them- I forgot they were there as well. It was not until I was back from my vacation (2 separate international flights) that I noticed they were still in their hiding spots. (yes, they were all worn on my person when going through security, and they were metal keys) :lol: :roll:

Thank god im not the only one who stashes handcuff keys! one on my car keys, one on my other keys and one....somewhere else :lol:

[LTblueknight]

Unlisted,

Yes, I read that whole thread before I bought my picks in the first place.

about what you said about random searches... a cop can't search you without a reason, or without your permission. If a cop asks to search you without probable cause, you can just say "I don't consent to any searches, officer." and he can't do a thing about it. If he does, anything he finds will be thrown out in court because he violated your rights. I'm fairly sure this rule applies most places in Canada and the states.

Also, yes it's "the lawyer's interpretation".. but that's the whole point.. the law is so unclear as to what you can do with lockpicks it's rediculous. That link you sent me says "under circumstances that give rise to a reasonable inference that the instrument has been used or is or was intended to be used". Also, keep in mind that that whole section is under the subheading "Breaking and Entering". Not breaking and entering? That article doesn't apply to you. At least that's my interpretation, I could be wrong. Like I said, I'd hate to be caught with them.

[unlisted]

Lt, coming from personal experience as both my career, and knowing others in your area, I would highly recommend you do you best to keep your picks at home.

I know of locksmiths who has let their license lapse by one day and be charged- and convicted.


Also, your interptation of the law, and what has been tried and convicted in courts are two different things.

If you really want the law, and what can/will happen, go ask a police officer.

You have to prove you had no intent on breaking and entering, how can you do that?

Not getting into a legal snafu with you, nor am I trying to negate what you are saying. I just have been through this before, and know of people in Alberta who have been charged.

[LTblueknight]

Kay, will do.

Yes thanks for the info, I will be careful to leave them at home. I noticed by your number of posts you must be very experienced and knowledgeable, so I hope I didn't come off as thinking I know better than you do. :)

[unlisted]

Post count means nothing... I just have lots of time spent around the law regarding these matters. So basically personal experience, and knowing about a dozen security professionals (not security guards) out on the west part of Canada.

No worries on coming off acting like you know more than me, I never claimed to know everything about stuff.

[tacomn]

laws depend on many factors.. state to even jurisdictions. Also most of the time the law is vague or is up for debate. My recommendations is not to worry about it too much. Im into collecting knives and have read countless california laws, blogs, talked to many police etc and have gotten different answers on just if a particular knife can be owned. Its funny that even the police dont really no but its just that there is so many laws and so many variation that its impossible to really no. Your fine ordering anything basically on the internet. So no worries there. Nothing is going to happen if you are in your house. Even if a cop finds it on you I would be he wouldn't give it a second thought. Worst case scenario he takes it. Problems arise when you do something illegal and you have it