Questions on key machines, etc.

[sturmgrenadier]

Hey fellas (and ladies), I'm brand new to lockpicking and am exploring taking up locksmithing as a hobby. I was considering taking Foley-Belsaw, but one of our site adminiistrators, who has been very honest and helpful to me, advised that you really don't learn enough to even become a lockout specialist. He advised that apprenticing is the only way to go even if you don't make beans. I wish I were still a young man; ten years ago at twenty-two, I would have consdiered doing just that.

But, I digress. I bought a ton of locksmithing/lockpicking equipment and supplies for firesale prices at a local auction where a retired locksmith's estate was being liquidated. For a total of sixty dollars, I picked up untold number of factory sealed Schlage and Weiser lock cylinders, a massive pinning set filled with thousands of pins categorized by lock manufacturer and size in icnrement of .005 and about sixty staple box size boxes of key blanks (automototive, door, etc.) But the best thing I picked up was an Ilco 'Manual' 025 key cutting machine. It still powers up and I presume it functions mechanically. My question is how do you learn to use one of these rigs? I contacted Ilco, the manufactuer, by email and requested a copy of the instruction manual (a copy of which they sent me), but it is pretty sparse on actual operation instructions and is laoded with specifications and part numbers/desciptions. Is this machine model considered obsolete or is it fairly modern? Is it worth holding on to even if I don't forsee trying to become a locksmith until maybe in my fifties (if I live that long)? I think that I would be most comfortable becoming a lockout specialist, but even the great Digital Blue has intimated that (although he has given the idea some thought) he doesn't feel qualified to do so (I hope I didn;t misudnerstand your words, DB. I think his point was that even a sub-area of locksmithing such as being a lockout specialiset is a massive endeavor that requires years of hands on training under the tutelage of someone experienced (via an apprenticeship, etc.) Sorry, I know that this thread was specificlly about key machines and that I'm all over the place here. But, not only do I not know where to begin, I also don't know whetehr it is realistic for someone with my abilities to begin at all. And there still is the matter of this heavy machine, leaking metal dust, that is taking up space on my floor:) Thanks all for any pointers/comments you might have.

[Raccoon]

I became a "lockout specialist" and general locksmith with relative ease. I haven't taken any real courses or had any apprentiship training. I'm just book-read and hands-on. I have remodeled many houses and worked a few construction jobs that included door hanging and lock fitting. It's my opinion that locksmithy things are straight forward and make simple common sense. Your milage may vary.

Try playing around with the key machine until it does what you want it to. All manual machines are pretty much identical-- insert the original key in the clamp that doesn't have a cutting wheel over it, and insert the blank key in the other clamp (that does have a cutting wheel). Each clamp should have some edge or device that allows you to align the key's shoulder against it, clamp both keys so they're even and straight.

Turn the machine on and try operating it. You might have to raise or lower or push in the arm holding the clamped keys, and then slide it from side to side... or you may just have to press a button and watch it work.

If the machine has a deburr wheel, take the newly cut key and briefly rub it against this wheel to take off any sharp cuts of metal still hanging onto the key. If you are getting lots of burrs, it may be time to replace the cutting wheel.

Just play around with your new toys. If you change your mind and want to get rid of this stuff, do send me a PM.

[Dimmy Locks]

The 025 was superceeded by the 045 model key duplicator.

Operation is very straight forward.

Place the master key in the relevent clamp and the blank in its clamp.

Ensure both master and blank are correctly aligned by using the handle and setting the guide against the shoulderstop of the master. This should then align the shoulder stop of the blank against the cutting wheel.

Relax the operating handle and turn machine on.

Then by using a slow side to side movement of the operating handle, trace the master key against the master guide. The wheel should then be cutting the blank as a copy.

[Krypos]

sorry raccoon- i already beat you to offer a PM and possible sale if it goes south. sorry!

[sturmgrenadier]

By supers(c)eded, do you mean that the ILCO 025 'Manual' model is now obsolete and has been supplanted in the workplace by the 045? Would the Ilco 045 model, by any chance, have the descriptor 'Automatic' stamped on its case? I think I saw this 'automatic' model at the auction where I bought the 'manual' one. It went for a $100.00, though. Some guy with an itchy trigger finger way overpaid compared to what the rest of the machines went for. It was the most advanced amchine, though. In the instruction manual, there are tons of small parts itemized and pictured. Does this mean that if one breaks, one has to buy a proprietary part from ILCO, the manufacturer, or send it into them for service? Or are there generic, standard repalcement parts for most of these machines irrespective of manufacturer? How durable are they?

[Bud Wiser]

I'm considering the Boley course just to get the certificate so I can buy supplies with out questions. Many distributors as for either a certificate or in some cases depending where you are located a license, and will only sell to bona fide locksmiths.

Apprenticing is not possible for me as I am currently employed and was hoping to do this on the side even after I retire!

So how does one get a key machine and other locksmith supplies if they do not have a certificate or are a apprentice? This seems to me like it would be a major road block.

I'm thinking if I take the course at least I get a key machine and certificate and walk away with a little more knowledge.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

[Dimmy Locks]

The 025 is no longer made, although replacement parts including cutting wheels are still available.

The re-designed manual model of their duplicator is now the 045, but is operated exactly the same way as the 025. If you do need an operating manual for the 025 you could try looking for the 045 operating manual.

[Dimmy Locks]

So how does one get a key machine and other locksmith supplies if they do not have a certificate or are a apprentice?

Although online auctions often forbid the sale of locksmith tools and machinery, check out websites of Auction Houses near you. From time to time Locksmith stock is sold at Auction and no limits are placed are on purchasers.
An example is:
http://www.sdauctions.com/index.php?cmd ... 237b5cc208

[Bud Wiser]

thanks for the good tip Dimmy!

I found another alternative to the Boley course, was wondering if I could get some feed back on it.

http://www.lockpickshop.com/p-Lockout-Specialist.html

offers a cheap vhs course for $249.

You get a vhs tape, some picks and a manual, no biggie I know BUT..

it claims,

# Become a bona-fide, licensed, bonded locksmith quickly and easily;
# Get easy access to reasonably priced locksmithing tools and equipment;

Still after you add in the price of a cheap key machine, your still around the Boley price range.

Comments?

[UWSDWF]

thanks for the good tip Dimmy!

I found another alternative to the Boley course, was wondering if I could get some feed back on it.

http://www.lockpickshop.com/p-Lockout-Specialist.html

offers a cheap vhs course for $249.

You get a vhs tape, some picks and a manual, no biggie I know BUT..

it claims,

# Become a bona-fide, licensed, bonded locksmith quickly and easily;
# Get easy access to reasonably priced locksmithing tools and equipment;

Still after you add in the price of a cheap key machine, your still around the Boley price range.

Comments?

I think you should look at the course out line for FB and then compare

[Bud Wiser]

I called Foley, mistakenly referred to them as Boley previously, such a NOOOB!

Any way I asked for the $599 price and they will be mailing me the full product information pack along with a sign up form for the $599 price.

At this price point it does seem like a better deal all the way around. You seem to get more in the way of lessons, and plus the pick gun and key machine sweetens the deal

thx.

[dhuskins]

I have been taking the video course from the Locksmith Video School (link). It is somewhat thin on advanced details and comes with no hardware. Having said that, I still think it makes a reasonably good video course.

I choose it because it offered no tools. I figured I could search this forum for good advice on what tools would be best for my situation and buy them. In addition, the tutorials on this forum are informative. Consequently, I was only interested in the video perspective of the learning. I wanted to see, in motion, and close up, what people on this forum were describing in text. To that end, the above course was ideal for my needs.