Tungsten Carbide picks?

[Emrys]

Ok, so I know I'm reviving this post from the dead, but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents.

My first lock picks were made from tungsten carbide allen wrenches. Despite taking FOREVER to file into a useful pick, they worked GREAT. To this day, they still give the best feedback of any lockpick material I've ever used.

I was interested in purchasing the tungsten carbide hacksaws previously mentioned but was also disappointed to learn that only the edge was covered.

If I can locate a source of thin tungsten carbide sheets, I think it'd be the way to go. IMHO they are far superior to any of the spring steel picks I've purchased online. Hope this gets the creative juices flowin for some zealous DIYers out there. If anyone knows of sheets of tungsten carbide that can be had at a good price please send a PM my way.

Rob

[3-in-1]

I have been in the lock and safe business for 35 years and have never even heard of tungsten carbide allen wrenches. Where did you get them? Maybe I just don't pay close enough attention. The T-C used on drill tips is brittle, the solid T-C drills are brittle. While it is possible there are ways of making T-C less brittle, I don't know. You may want to look at manganese steel though. Properly tempered it can be very hard and very tough. It was the metal of choice in the cannonball style safes of the early 1900's built to resist nitro attacks. It was so hard they couldn't machine it, only grind it.

[raimundo]

tungsten carbide is extremely difficult to work with, no cutter is used, just grinders,

what would be the point of using such a material in brass locks? Unless you mean to carve out the plug to a bigger keyway?

this sort of pick would only be desired by someone who's technique is brute force and stupidity

It would be very damaging to the locks.

[dls]

Tungsten carbide would be an expensive material to make an allen key out of and wouldnt stand up to much torque.
Dont mix up hardness with toughness they are very very different, for example glass is harder than many metals but is no where near as tough.
Tc is hard to cut, not tough to torque.

[raimundo]

tungsten tools usually only have the working tip made of TC and the rest is some steel alloy

if there was any reason to make a TC tip on an allen wrench it would be like that, not the whole tool. but theres no reason to make an allen wrench of that material, though some screw drivers do have tc tips.

[3-in-1]

I haven't done much lockpicking for over 20 years so I am out of touch with the current state of the art. Back then I think the only metal used, was what would usually be called spring steel. Spring steel is just one stage of many different possible stages of tempered high carbon steels. Fully hardened and UN-tempered hi carb steel is so hard a file will not touch it and shatters like glass. Fully annealed (softened) high carb steel if used as a pick would bend much too easily. So it is an in-between tempered state that works best. As far as Allen wrenches go and files for that matter would usually also be made of tempered hi carb steels. Files are obviously hard enough to dig into spring steel. Allen wrenches aren't required to bend like a spring, twisting and deformation of the tip is undesirable, so I am guessing they may be tempered a little bit harder than most spring stock, resulting in them being more difficult to file. Tungsten Carbide screwdriver tips? Haven't heard of that one either.

[Emrys]

I have been in the lock and safe business for 35 years and have never even heard of tungsten carbide allen wrenches.

Hmm... I might have to retract my previous statement then.

What is the generic material allen wrenches are made out of? I was under the impression it wasn't any type of steel. Did some asking around when I first started picking and got told it was tungsten carbide, which is what they seem to make drill bits out of too.

It's not stainless for certain but perhaps it's some grade of high carbon steel? Anyone know?

Dont mix up hardness with toughness they are very very different, for example glass is harder than many metals but is no where near as tough.

True. While taking a materials science class we studied the difference. Materials usually behaved in the order of "Harder, stronger, more brittle, less ductile, less tough", or vice versa if the material softer.

what would be the point of using such a material in brass locks? Unless you mean to carve out the plug to a bigger keyway?
this sort of pick would only be desired by someone who's technique is brute force and stupidity

It would be very damaging to the locks.

But my original intent on reviving this old thread was to give some feedback on what I've experienced using different materials for lockpicking. I 100% agree with rainmundo on how harsh a hard metal can be on soft pins like brass, and saying that, would urge beginners to stick to the spring steel. Even though allen wrench metal (whatever secret material it is they've hidden from me ) was my first material I used to make lockpicks, it never resulted in lock failure by my hand. But I have always noticed a very big difference in the feedback the harder metal of allen wrenches gave me. If someone has time, craft some. I'd like to see if they notice the same.

Sorry for the long winded post. Hopefully you didn't hold your breath.

Rob

[dls]

The allen key is probably forged or rolled in some way, this process in itself will toughen the material its called work hardening.then you temper or harden the steel as required, what you are left with is something similar to spring steel.

[DYI]

I think the idea of a tungsten carbide pick is worth exploring - although carbide will fracture without plastic deformation, its tensile strength is almost twice that of a good high speed steel, and it's also much stiffer, with a Young's modulus almost three times as high. Solid carbide machine tools are, in face, quite common, including applications where tensile stresses and torque are present - I have a few solid carbide miniature boring bars for my lathe which work quite well and can deflect considerably without breaking, and solid carbide endmills are overtaking the steel variety for serious milling applications. Solid carbide drills also exist, and can be run very hard without chipping.

The bottom line is that, using a good grade of carbide, brittleness would be a controllable issue, owing to the readily perceptible deflection before fracture in the better grades, and may be offset by the benefits of higher elastic modulus and tensile strength. Probably unnecessary, considering that HSS / "spring steel" picks are totally adequate, but tungsten carbide picks probably would work.

If anyone wants to try, it would be beneficial to use a micrograin carbide, such as this. Travers also carries rectangular blanks, but they're plain C2 grade and of less utility for a task like this.

[unjust]

tungsten carbide is VERY brittle. the easiest way to see this is look at an older carbide tipped circular saw blade. you'll note that parts of the carbide tips have sheared off. i'd be very surprised if a pick made of carbide didn't snap off the first time it was used.

it's also very difficult to shape, typically you have a dedicated carbide sharpening wheel that will do some shaping akin to a grinder but much less aggressively.

[DYI]

To clarify what I said in my previous post - if your spring steel picks are not plastically deforming or breaking under normal use, a pick made of modern micrograin carbide will not snap off under the same use. Being much stiffer, it will also give superior tactile feedback. And yes, I'm aware of how nearly unworkable carbide is. Nonetheless, I think it could be made to work. I'll have to attempt this in the summer...

[barbarian]

Might be some confusion between Tungsten Carbide and HSS.

HSS generally has Tungsten in it.

Check out the Wiki for Tungsten Carbide. I dropped a 3/8 diameter solid Carbide milling cutter ($25) on a cement floor. It rolled off the bench and shattered in three sections. Something the size of a pick could probably be broken with your bare hands.

[JasonAller]

Another thought to consider is what sort of tool marks a pick would leave. If you have a pick that is softer metal than the pins it will take damage, but leave few marks if they work at all. If it is similar to the pins then both will have some wear. If it is slightly harder than the pins it will not wear badly and leave some marks. If it is made of something too exotic it will take no noticeable wear, but have the potential to leave very noticeable tool marks behind.

This isn't just a matter for the forensic analysis after the fact, but good choice for wear on two surfaces that you care about. You want your picks to last and you don't want to damage the lock either.

[unjust]

tool shaping can ameliorate the tool mark issue somewhat, e.g. a sharp edge vs a rounded one, but how you apply force will still come into play depending on the forces involved.

frankly i'm not familiar with the micro carbides described above, other than as mills, and as barbarian stated, they *shatter* like glass, the point of them as a cutting tool is that they are so very hard that they don't deform. i've snapped a .05" mill like it wasn't even there by bumping it into a work piece while holding the collet sloppily(not even in the mill) that's not crazy sauce away from the tool thickness you'd want, and a lot less force than any pick i've ever used can handle. i've seen 1/8" mills snap in half with little enough force to barely bend a pick.

now, i could be wrong, but i'm going to stand by the fact that i think there's a very good reason there aren't commercial versions of this.

[unjust]

also backtrackign a bit, allen wrenches are typically made from a mid grade mild steel but not hardened.

at least they certainly behave like it when filing, and spark like it when ground. and can harden a bit with work and heat, but then become brittle and snap.

most tools like that where you twist them incorporate hardening only at the very tip or along the cutting edge with a softer core or shaft to transmit the force to the tool face.