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Master Combination Lock Trick

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general questions here.

Moderators: digital_blue, zeke79

Master Combination Lock Trick

Postby Exodus5000 » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:15 pm

This post will be a two parter. I will first off describe a manipulation trick i discovered and then ask a question I am curious about.

I read much about deriving a master combination padlock through mechanical manipulation. In short, listen for first number, and pulling up on the shackle and turning the dial and looking for inconsistencies to derive the third number. I was unhappy with having to listen to the internal dial set for the first number and wanted to find a new way. I discovered that if the lock is open, if you rest the shackle lightly inside it's corresponding hole so that is not quite in the locked position and turn your dial, the dial will pause 2 numbers to the right of the first number. If this information has already been found I have no read of it anywhere, but if not then you heard it here first folks.

My question:
I read a tutorial pertaining to the same Master Combination locks about how to make a master key for a particular series (in my case v 36.) It involved removing the hull from the padlock and grinding a key down to match the pins so they lift correctly. I thought to myself this idea might work despite being a lot of work. However, wouldn't it be easier to impression the lock? I have read the instructions on this site about impressioning and i must admit i am confused yet as to how the procedure is done to create a decent impression on a blank key. Additionally, Are these type of master combo lock keys sold in "blank" forms? Or could i buy something that would work just as well?
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Re: Master Combination Lock Trick

Postby CitySpider » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:38 pm

Two things.

First, the reason your trick hasn't been discussed is because it's very specialized. It's helpful if you want to find the combination to a lock that's already open, which really doesn't happen all that much.

Second, I'm by no means a master of impressioning, but I've played around with these particular locks in general, and I don't think it'd work very well. I'll bow to someone more knowledgable, but the lack of sufficient spring pressure would probably make them extremely difficult to impression. Also, I wouldn't know where to get a key blank for them, which is a difficulty that you recognized.

Looking forward to hearing more thoughts from someone with more experience,
Spider
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Postby Darek84CJ » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:29 pm

Yes it is very possible, and I have personally done it before. Like you said, that key will only open the V36 locks. In my case, I made a key for the V12. Just grind open the back, expose the lock, pick the lock, remove core with pins still intack, go to hardware store and ask them to match a key for that cylinder, go home, and grind away slots for the key until all the pins are at their shearline, something you'll be visibly able to see since the core will be out of the housing.
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Postby Chucklz » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:50 pm

A small point, the key you make is not a Master key, but just the operating key. THese locks are not masterkeyed.
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Postby Exodus5000 » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:17 pm

Are you sure they're not master keyed? Maybe not an entire version of locks would be, but I remember back in high school the gym teacher had a master key to all of our Master combo padlocks.
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Postby Chucklz » Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:01 am

You may misunerstand what is meant by master key. A master key system works like this. You have a bunch of locks, each with their own individual, or change keys. The individual keys from one lock do not open any other locks. All the locks can be opened by a Master key. (Note this is a simplification that does not take into account all of the things you can do with a masterkeyed system)

Whate you had in school, were a set, of combination locks that had different combinations when opening by the dial, but all of the pin tumbler locks on the back were keyed the same.
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Postby Exodus5000 » Thu Apr 08, 2004 12:14 am

I see now, thanks for the clarification.
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Postby karl » Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:04 am

there is a website that sells master keys for them,but they are about $25!if anyone wants the site,ill try to find it.if someone makes a key,they could post it here with measurements and stuff(not sure if that would work).maybe you could carve a hacksaw blade or a thin piece of metal on a grinder to the shape of the key?
hi
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Postby Darek84CJ » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:24 am

Chucklz wrote:
Whate you had in school, were a set, of combination locks that had different combinations when opening by the dial, but all of the pin tumbler locks on the back were keyed the same.



Exactly.
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Postby Chucklz » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:29 am

I just tried the dial pause trick with a bunch of Master combination locks, I had several stops, none which were 2 numbers higher than my first number.
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Postby Exodus5000 » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:33 am

Chucklz, your problem is solved by then turning the dial in the opposite direction than the one you attempted. There should be only 1 pause when turned correctly, but there are indeed multiple ones when turned in the incorrect direction. I should have clarified.
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Postby Chucklz » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:40 am

I still get a good deal of false stops, but I do get the first number as well. I tried it on a lock which I drilled to see the works. Btw, a master padlock can be opened LRL or RLR with just a little math.
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Postby Exodus5000 » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:47 am

Hmmm, i've tried this on at least 5 locks and have never had that problem. We are indeed using the same lock?
http://www.securerite.com/products/imag ... ional1.gif

Also as far as technique goes I push down lightly on the shackle so that it is starting to depress the spring loaded portion inside, but not quite locking.
Not that this trick is all that handy in the first place.
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Postby CitySpider » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:51 am

Just tried it myself on four master combination locks of varying ages, between one year and eight years. No luck. Tried it in both directions. (sorry if this doubleposts. Internet error).
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Postby Exodus5000 » Thu Apr 08, 2004 7:55 am

last thing i want to do is spread false knowledge. But i'll also add that i do not exagerate or lie about the fact that it does indeed work for my 2 locks i have here at school with me. hmmmmm, now thats disconserting.
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