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Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Having read the FAQ's you are still unfulfilled and seek more enlightenment, so post your general questions here.

Moderators: digital_blue, zeke79

Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby Safety0ff » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:30 am

Banan_mormor wrote:Our biggest selling lock in Sweden is ASSA scd and Assa twin and they are nearly impossible to bump that maybe the reason that no one talks about it here.

Is the ASSA SCD bump proof? I know it has evil looking security pins and drill protection.

The twin can be bumped if you have a bump key with the correct sidebar code if I recall correctly. http://www.blackbag.nl/?p=69
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby Banan_mormor » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:25 am

The Assa twin can be bumpt if the sidecode is right. But they don´t give out the same sidecodes here in sweden what i seen. I never seen the same sidecode twice. ASSA scd is nearly impossible to bump. The springs tension is extremely hard. I have tried over a tusen times and only succeded once.


Assa scd :

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Han fay did a cutaway on Assa scd: ( page.8 )

http://www.toool.nl/images/f/f9/Cutaway1.pdf

More about Assa Twin:

http://www.toool.nl/images/d/dc/Assa-twin-part1.pdf
Lock is fun, fun is lock
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby chev49 » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:00 pm

great video, something i will have to try. thanks, rick
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby globallockytoo » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:55 pm

Arbus,
Using mushroom tumblers is an old and tried solution that has been hit and miss. Arguably, some people will be fooled by your display...but in reality....it does not work every time.

You have shown a elcheapo 570 cylinder copy....probably a taiwan import company POS cylinder that sells for $4.00 at LSC (or Baton).

Picking the cylinder is mostly knowledge anyway.....after encountering a mushroom (spool) tumbler...simply lift the pins with a hook and the plug will turn.....you know this....dont think you can deceive the LP101 community with a hollow attempt.

With bumping....I personally have bumped cylinders with spools (mushroom tumblers) and so have many others....the better quality the cylinder, the easier bumping is to perform...irrespective of spools....whether or not it is connected to the top spring in the bible or not.

The fact remains....that the more commonly found locks on residential doors in the USA are Schlage or Kwikset entrance sets sometimes with deadbolts too and the cylinders are not made totally from brass as in your display. Even many offices use entrance set cylinders...where the top pins are required to be shorter and the spring lengths too are shorter....having longer pins/springs makes key entry/extraction much more difficult.....also you limit the potential combinations because often a 9 or 8 or even 7 bottom pin will not pass the top pin/driver allowing easy entry or egress.

I suggest testing your theory on a Schlage or Boyd cylinder and a Kwikset cylinder and determine the feasibility and effectiveness of your solution.

Or just suggest to all your clients to use BP or Bilock or Protec!
One One was a race horse, one one won one race, one two was a racehorse, one two won one too.

Disclaimer: Do not pull tag off mattress. Not responsible for legal advice while laughing.
Bilock - The Original True Bump Proof Pin Tumbler System!
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby Safety0ff » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:22 am

@globallockytoo:

I think the tumblers the man in the video was installing were connected to the spring which keeps them from contacting the key pins. I don't know how well they would work in a stack with a longer key pin, but they aren't simply mushroom pins.
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby globallockytoo » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:00 am

Safety0ff wrote:@globallockytoo:

I think the tumblers the man in the video was installing were connected to the spring which keeps them from contacting the key pins. I don't know how well they would work in a stack with a longer key pin, but they aren't simply mushroom pins.


Okay. If the driver doesnt contact the bottom pin....this means that there is no transfer of energy....I understand that....but by the same token, is driver sitting below the shearline...if it is...then bumping is still likely and probable.

And just because he shows that he couldnt pick or bump it...is inconclusive proof IMHO.

You just cant tell in the video whether he applies more tension to the wrench or bump key. I'm skeptical.

Similar to that recent Bilock picking video where the guy later claimed it was all a set up.
One One was a race horse, one one won one race, one two was a racehorse, one two won one too.

Disclaimer: Do not pull tag off mattress. Not responsible for legal advice while laughing.
Bilock - The Original True Bump Proof Pin Tumbler System!
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby Aractus » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:18 pm

arbus wrote:I am out of stock of the pins at the moment. Waiting for more. I've been field testing them with good success (none of my customers have been broken into yet 8) ). The field test is more for durability. Just sent out 80 padlocks with these pins.
Arbus, it's illegal to deceive or lie to a customer in order to sell a product. And it's unprofessional. You know this. Padlocks can't be bumped anyway, unless they're being held in a vice or something - in the field they hang off a chain, you can't just "hammer" in the key while applying tension! Have you successfully bumped a padlock on a chain? I imagine it would be much harder than picking the lock or than shimming it.

http://www.24hourlocksmith.com.au/lock_bumping.htm

"Burglars can cut a Master Bump Key to open 95% of locks in Australia."

Did you make that number up, or can you prove it? From my set of cabinet wafer masters plus the ones I have available at work, plus the padlock masters I own, plus a set of Auto-Jigglers would allow me to realistically open about 80-90% of all cabinet locks found in public buildings and on lockers. In fact the last time I was a "visitor" at a certain government facility I won't mention by name they made me lock my mobile in a locker that I had a master to on my keyring. I could have opened every locker, and stolen everyone's mobile phone. And it's a very common cabinet master that every man and his dog has on their keyring/dog-collar. But that's a wafer lock that can't be "bumped".

And hell with two screwdrivers I can pull a lock straight off a brownbuilt filing cabinet in less than two seconds - causing minimum damage, I could steal whatever I wanted and put the lock back on leaving almost no evidence of tampering. And most padlocks can be shimmed - you know that - not to mention that masters do exist and "anyone with a masterkeyed lock can create a master".

Stop insulting your customers by claiming to offer them a "high security lock" when all you've done is changed one pin; and you do it as a "field test". Would you like it if your doctor gave you a "miracle" drug and failed to mention he was just testing its effectiveness?

"To Guarantee your security your locks should have these basic features"

Then by the end of the page it's assumed your "high security locks" include all three of those "basic" features - including key control and pick resistance, right? But it sounds to me like the ONLY thing you're offering is some level of bump resistance, correct?

"While we admit no lock (either Mechanical or Electronic) can truly be called “Pick Proof”."

Bilock is pick proof. And their master-keying system does not allow anyone to create the master key from a blank and a file. You know this.

"We are the only Locksmith in Australia with High Security (Patented) Bump Proof* Locks. The advantage of these locks is that often only the Centre Barrel and tumblers have to be changed."

You can't claim that you offer a unique feature if it isn't true. Bilock is high security, patented, bump proof, pick proof and key duplication is restricted because the "blanks" are patented protecting them from being manufactured by Silca.

"There are other locks on the market that increase pick resistance and that are bump proof. The biggest advantage of our High Security Pins is cost saving. There is no need to purchase more expensive high security locks. In fact It costs just $3.00 extra per lock cylinder when you have your locks rekeyed."

They increase bump resistance, but not pick resistance - again you fail to mention this. You have mentioned the feature as a basic security requirement, and your customers are going to assume that this is a feature of your locks.

As for security keys - if the criminal can't get the blanks how's he meant to make a bump key? If restricted keys can't be cut then not just anyone has the blanks - otherwise they could just copy the key instead of bumping it.

In any case, even if they can't bump it they could still impression the key in around 15 minutes. That's not high security. And you have NO evidence of whether bumping is responsible for 2% of break-ins or 70% of break-ins. You cannot claim to offer a high security solution if it's not going to reduce the chance of a break in significantly.
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby Jaakko » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:50 pm

Bilock is pick proof.

It is not. John Falle makes a tool for it, opening time about 7 minutes and the procedure can be interrupted.

If you want pick proof that that hasn't been opened and that there is no known tools for yet, go Abloy Protec.
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby Aractus » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:30 pm

I see. And a quick google search also reveals he makes an "Abloy decoder" tool too. I'm assuming that at the moment only a registered locksmith can open a bilock with this tool in theory - which would mean that it's still very safe from most criminals.
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby Aractus » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:33 pm

Aractus wrote:I see. And a quick google search also reveals he makes an "Abloy decoder" tool too. I'm assuming that at the moment only a registered locksmith can open a bilock with this tool in theory - which would mean that it's still very safe from most criminals.
By the way, you could drill the lock in less than 7 minutes anyway - so I'd say it's still true that a criminal will find another way to break in that doesn't involve picking when he encounters a bilock.
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby Jaakko » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:35 am

Aractus wrote:I see. And a quick google search also reveals he makes an "Abloy decoder" tool too.

Actually he has at least three different Abloy decoders, for different Abloy locks.
I'm assuming that at the moment only a registered locksmith can open a bilock with this tool in theory

These tools are restricted, meaning that a locksmith can't get access to these tools unless:

RESTRICTED EQUIPMENT. These items are only available to departments of GOVERNMENT, MILITARY, POLICE & INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES who are involved specifically with NON-DESTRUCTIVE ENTRY (N.D.E.)
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby yoyoboy » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:27 am

And besides, there isn't a decoder availble for Abloy Protec. Or at least not one that I am aware of.
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby globallockytoo » Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:59 am

Jaakko wrote:
Bilock is pick proof.

It is not. John Falle makes a tool for it, opening time about 7 minutes and the procedure can be interrupted.

If you want pick proof that that hasn't been opened and that there is no known tools for yet, go Abloy Protec.


The Falle decoder and Bilock pick is designed for First Gen only. Most of the product made today (and in the last 8 years) is New Gen and cannot be picked with the Falle pick.

There is a pick for Protec....I think it is made in China...i'll have to find the link.
One One was a race horse, one one won one race, one two was a racehorse, one two won one too.

Disclaimer: Do not pull tag off mattress. Not responsible for legal advice while laughing.
Bilock - The Original True Bump Proof Pin Tumbler System!
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Re: Can you sell Bump Proof Locks?

Postby Jaakko » Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:37 pm

globallockytoo wrote:The Falle decoder and Bilock pick is designed for First Gen only. Most of the product made today (and in the last 8 years) is New Gen and cannot be picked with the Falle pick.

Thank you for the info. What is different in the New Gen? I don't even know how old my Falle catalog is, so I can't be sure if he has new toys :)

There is a pick for Protec....I think it is made in China...i'll have to find the link.

If you find it, please write about it to advanced or PM me. Generally speaking I don't believe there is a Protec pick. Protec dialer maybe, but no pick or decoder. Unless some proof or method of operation is shown to me :)
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