Can rotating a plug 180 cause master spacers to fall out?

[theTastyCat]

Hey all - was playing with a Yale master-keyed lock a few days ago and got to thinking. When picking a mastered plug to 180, is it ever possible for a master spacer to fall out? The lower-left part of this pic, from this forum, shows how the master spacer can lodge down into the keyway a bit - do they ever fall out when picked without the real key to hold them in?



Thanks a lot.

[FarmerFreak]

When picking a mastered plug to 180, is it ever possible for a master spacer to fall out?

Yes, it is possible. Usually they can be pushed back in, the same as a driver pin. But they can also (sometimes) be pushed/pulled into another chamber or pushed/pulled out of the lock. Depends on the lock and the size of the master pin.

[cledry]

Try pushing up on all the drivers (top stack) with the back side of a pick so that all are pushed up in unison and rotate the plug at the same time. It is common when picking for the plug to stop at 180 when the top stack drops into the bottom of the keyway.

[theTastyCat]

Good info.

Cledry, I think you're describing how to continue to rotate the plug past 180, am I correct?

So my next question is: how often in real practice is lock basically broken this way? If a master spacer/disc somehow gets out of its stack, then the key probably won't work, which I would consider "breaking" the lock, not that it couldn't be repaired.

In my experience, most common locks don't require rotation to or past 180 degrees to operate, but there are certainly those that do. Locksmiths, do you all take any precautions to prevent this when working in the field?

[squelchtone]

Good info.

Cledry, I think you're describing how to continue to rotate the plug past 180, am I correct?

So my next question is: how often in real practice is lock basically broken this way? If a master spacer/disc somehow gets out of its stack, then the key probably won't work, which I would consider "breaking" the lock, not that it couldn't be repaired.

In my experience, most common locks don't require rotation to or past 180 degrees to operate, but there are certainly those that do. Locksmiths, do you all take any precautions to prevent this when working in the field?

Knobs do not need 180 rotation, but deadbolts often do especially if they have a lazy tail piece. I'm glad you're getting use out of my pic and that it is provoking good questions.

A lock being stuck at 180.. I wouldn't consider that broken if it is a normal top pin stopping it from rotating, its more of knowing what to do if it happens. A master wafer falling out can be a real pain in the butt because as you already said, the real keys will stop working for the lock.

I'm not sure what locksmiths do in the field to prevent that from happening, but as far has hobby lock picking goes, this is one of the reasons we tend to scold new pickers for picking their home, apartment and dorm locks, because things can and do go wrong, especially when in a master keyed environment.

Have a good one,
Squelchtone

[theTastyCat]

Thanks, Squelch - didn't realize it was you that created that. Outstanding graphic - shows 100% what's going on in the lock.

Yeah, it does seem that this could mess up some locks. However, it seems like we'd hear about it more often if it were a common occurrence. I can't really think of any way short of inserting a blank that would 100% prevent a master wafer falling out, either. Just seems like we'd read more warnings if smiths were regularly experiencing this, making the lock unopenable by key until repaired.

[Wizer]

... inserting a blank that would 100% prevent a master wafer falling out

You can´t insert a blank into a picked lock, the pins are in the way. Maybe stuffing it with dental floss could do it.

[theTastyCat]

Oh yeah - duh. Floss? Could you explain?

Anybody had this happen to them?

[mhole]

stick a tension wrench handle into the lock, so it acts like the 'spine' of the key.

This can happen onsite, it happened to me once, and led to a highly stressful fingertip search of a church floor for a missing wafer .5mm thick...

[Wizer]

The floss is just something I read on the forums, I have not tried it. -You stuff the keyway tightly full of floss, and it pervents pins from moving/dropping.
The blank is not so bad idea, you would just have to cut it down so it only fills the bottom of keyway. It allso works on locks where you have to turn the plug more than one rotation, you don´t have to pick it again.

[squelchtone]

I wonder if instead of a blank, if a bump key could work better because it would fill the bottom of the keyway, but not interfere with the pins as much, of course if it does, just file the bump key even deeper and get rid of the ramps so that all you have it the bottom of the bow filling in the bottom of the keyway.

The floss method I believe is Raimundo's idea to use when you pick in the wrong direction and don't have a plug spinner, you just have to stuff enough floss into the keyway to overcome the springs trying to push the driver pins into the keyway.

Squelchtone

[raimundo]

Nope, I have mentioned the floss method, but I got that here from someone. perhaps is was Zeke79, anyway,it was in reference to the sergeant keso dimple lock as I remember.

[cledry]

It isn't a common occurrence in the field but can happen. Generally the wider the keyway the more problem you will have. Yale keyways such as GA, GB, GC etc. are very wide and they are the only locks I have had it happen to, but cheap locks like Kwikset that use a very thin .25 master pin can mess up too. If you suspect a lock has master wafers and you know you will need to do a full rotation or at least past 180 degrees there is a simple trick. Pick it normally but before reaching 180 degrees you insert the handle of a tension wrench fully into the plug and bottom it out in the keyway, maintain this contact with the cylinder wall as you rotate past 180. I actually use a broken HPC key extractor turned upside down.

Obviously when finished you will want to try the master key and change keys for the cylinder.

[theTastyCat]

Perfect. That seems to be a smart, foolproof way to prevent losing a disc. I'll do that from now on - sure appreciate the tip.

[Evan]

I wonder if instead of a blank, if a bump key could work better because it would fill the bottom of the keyway, but not interfere with the pins as much, of course if it does, just file the bump key even deeper and get rid of the ramps so that all you have it the bottom of the bow filling in the bottom of the keyway.

@squelchtone:

The type of key you described is officially called a "set-up key" by Schlage, a key cut to all # 9 depths... Although the reason why you would want to use such a key specific to Schlage when keying up a cylinder is to retain the Primus finger-pins and Everest check-pin in the proper position as you work on the plug and reassemble the cylinder, with other non-high security type locks a "set-up type key" cut to the deepest possible depth for the lock in question with the steeples between the bittings removed could be inserted after the cylinder has been picked and turned slightly in order to turn it without dropping any master pins... A bump key cut to the deepest depths alone without removing the steeples would not be able to be inserted into any lock which is pinned to that deepest cut in any of the chambers after it has been slightly turned as that largest bottom pin would not have enough room to ride up the slope remaining on the key...

~~ Evan