Trouble with American Military lock

[Josh66]

This one:





Issued to my Dad in the late 70's. I lost the key for this, but I know it functions properly.

I haven't been able to pick this one yet, but I am making progress on it (sort of). Pin 1 binds first, then pin 2. I set pin 1, but as soon as I set pin 2, pin 1 pops back up. If I use anything but the lightest tension, pin 1 won't budge. Once it does set, the plug rotates slightly and the next (and only) binding pin is #2. I cannot seem to get pins 1 & 2 both set at the same time, and until they are, no other pins seem to be binding...

Is that normal for this lock, and what is causing it? Any other tips?

[gloves]

What you're describing reminds me very well of security pins, spool ones for example.

When you false-set a spool pin, it seems like you successfully set one, but for real you just managed to get the upper pin stuck halfway in the shear line and hence you get that plug rotation you're experiencing.

Are you familiar with security pins and did you ever successfully pin-to-pin a lock containing at least one of them?

If not, here are a couple of the many videos on youtube which explain visually how security pins behave inside the lock mechanism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrOAKN5jSOg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywRDBM9py6o

Not that I'm so lazy today, just that graphics can be better than words alone.


Cheers

[Josh66]

Are you familiar with security pins and did you ever successfully pin-to-pin a lock containing at least one of them?

I'm familiar with them as far as what they look like and how they work, but I don't have much experience picking them. I have a couple locks that I can SPP that 'might' have them (according to the packaging), but it might just be one easy to set one, or they might be missing altogether...

I'll try raking this one some more with super light tension...

[squelchtone]

Just a heads up, there are no pins (as in pin tumbler lock) inside that lock, Search for the American H10, it is a double wafer lock. You'll have to pick both sides while maintaining constant turning force with your tension wrench/turning tool. Also, there are NO security pins inside the lock since it is a wafer lock, no spool pins inside. Also, when the lock moves like you described, try to apply a lot more tension on the plug, you may have it picked already, and need some more force to overcome the cam spring in order to turn the plug and pop the shackle.

Here's a video of the H10 mechanism inside another American Lock body being raked in 1 minute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q2upJL3m28

here's another video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUKSrP7afdU

Funny, we were just talking about this lock in another thread earlier today.

Squelchtone

[Josh66]

That appears to be different than mine, mine is definitely a pin tumbler - I can see the pins. The keyway looks different too.

The first pin to bind is pin 1 - I can set that, but if I put anything but the LIGHTEST tension on it, it won't move at all. Once that is set, I feel around for the next binding pin, and it's the next one back (2). I can set that one too - but as soon as I do the first one clicks back out. It's like there is a VERY fine line between too much tension and not enough. I just can't get both of them to stay set at the same time.

Once the first pin pops back up, I have to release a little tension to set it again, and this releases the second pin too. I have a feeling that if I could get the perfect amount of tension I might be able to set both of them - but I'm just not there yet. I can't get it light enough to set the first pin, but also heavy enough to keep the second one down.

[squelchtone]

Oops, never mind then, I saw that pic of your keyway and it totally looked like an H10.

Did you try to lubricate the lock after all these years? Do you have the key and does the key open it easily and without much fuss?

Squelchtone

[Josh66]

I'll soak it in some AeroKroil overnight. (Or would something else be better?)

I lost the key (still hoping it turns up somewhere around here), but when I last used it, it worked fine. I honestly can't remember how much tension it took to turn it with the key now...

With no tension, the pins all move freely. It's probably been over a year since it's been opened.

[MarkMcGrath]

If it is military and you get frustrated you possibly might be able to get a american bypass tool, and open it then remove the current core for one with a keyed core. That way you can keep the old core and pick, while having a operational lock.

[averagejoe]

If it is military and you get frustrated you possibly might be able to get a american bypass tool, and open it then remove the current core for one with a keyed core. That way you can keep the old core and pick, while having a operational lock.

Unfortunately the core in this model is not removable.

[Josh66]

I finally got it! Thanks for all the help, guys.



Top of keyway tension, with the small side of the wrench pictured. Started out raking with the rake pictured (it's not finished - I wanted to test it out before I made handles for it & polished it), then finished it off SPPing with the hook (only one pin, the first one, needed set with the hook).

[Josh66]

I now only own one lock that I haven't picked yet - Château C 970.

[zeepia]

Should I send you one Abloy?

[Josh66]

HAHA - I don't know if I'm ready for that. I just picked that Chateau C 970 too, BTW.

I need to buy a new lock or two now...

I was thinking of either an American 5200, Master 930, or a Yale Y300 (I can spend $30ish on a new lock right now). Kind of leaning towards the Y300...

[Josh66]

So, a friend at work brought me in another lock today - his American 1205 from the Army. Holy road apples! LOL

I think every pin except for a couple of the key pins (all of the ones I can actually see, except for one, are) is serrated. I was just starting to get the hang of spool pins. It doesn't feel like this one has any - just serrated pins, and a lot of them.

[Pawnshop]

I have yet to find an American 5200GL without serrated pins, all pins larger than #2 in the newer ones, very few non serrated larger ones in the older locks, and I have re keyed several dozen. I will take one apart tonight and see what the top pins look like.