Lock Picking 101
Lockpicking, Locksmithing, Locksport, Locks and Picks
       

Lock Picking 101
Login
Profile
FAQ
Members
Search
Lock Pick 
Shop


Information
FAQ & General Information
Locksmith Business
Pick-Fu - Do... Not try.
Got Questions?
General Chatter


Hardware
Automatic/Mechanical
Lockpicks - Manual
Locks
Eu Locks, Picks & Hardware
Buy - Sell - Trade

Advanced Locks
Advanced Locks Information
Combo, Electronic & Safes
Automotive Locks and Picks
High Security Locks
Advanced Lock Pick Tools


Locksport Groups
Locksport Local
Chapter President's Office
Locksport Board Room

Featured Picks
Locksmiths
Locksmiths Forum
 

Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

Moderators: zeke79, keysman

Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby Brandon_K » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:07 pm

New to the forum here. First, by no means am I a pro at this, nor even really an enthusiast. I started playing with locks for no other reason than I think it's fun. Then I was put in the position of being the one that had to rekey things for our volunteer non-profit. Over the last few years I've played with and rekeyed a ton of Kwikset locks. Nothing special, almost always KW1 5 pin keyways. I'm familiar enough with master keying those to have a Grand Master, and user keys below those that only open X locks, while other user keys open Y locks, etc.

I'm starting to play with Schlage and I can't find a manual listing the do's and dont's of master keying a 5 pin Schlage SC1 keyway.

In this scenario, I have two existing codes, 37766 and 35638. I would like to repin them so that there is a master that will open both of them. Going off of what I know about Kwikset, I've devised that I could use 37968 for the master. The original cylinders would be keyed as followed;

3
7
7 + M2
6
6 + M2

3
5 + M2
6 + M3
3 + M3
8

My initial concern is the M2 master pins, they are incredibly thin and for that reason, I've always steered clear of them in Kwikset. Everything I've ever done with Kwikset, I've always used M3 or larger. Is there any real issue with using an M2? In my mind it would make the lock a lot easier to pick (not that this is for a high security install, but if you're going to do it, do it right type of mentality). The only way I could see eliminating any of the M2's would be to use a M3 and a M4, respectively, on the 3rd position.

Second is the number of Schlage top pins available. Anything I have ever repinned in Kwikset, I've used a .180 top pins, either standard or anti-pick spool pins. My Schlage kit that I just bought (LAB SPK115) has 4 different top pins, .235, .200, .165 and an "F" series top pin, which I don't believe applies to these locks. It has a chart with the bitting numbers, bottom pin, master pin and top pin, etc, but nothing to correlate with the pins I would be doing. At that point, I would just add the bottom pin + the master pin and then use the depth of cut line to determine the top pin, correct? IE, 5 (.240) + M2 (.030) = .270 which would be a .200 top pin? 6 (.255) + M3 (.045) = .300 = .165 top pin? And .300 is the longest set of pins you can go with on Schlage, correct?

On a completely side note, I was dealing with a different Kwikset system that I didn't originally do. The master key (which was available to me) was cut as 12321. The "general" locks were pinned as;

1 = .172
2 = .195
3 = .218
2 + M3 = .264
1 + M3 = .241

The lower level key was misplaced, so I went to have a new one code cut. By my math, that key should be a 12354. I used a locksmith that I had never been to. He had an older cutting machine that used charts, not an automated machine like my local shop has. He cut the 12354, it wouldn't open the lock. He cut it again (with a different rake?), still didn't work. I did have a picture of the old key, which he noticed the last 2 positions went lower than a 4 & 5 normally looks, so he cut it as a 12365, that opened the lock. We even pulled the cylinder apart just to make sure I wasn't losing it, but it was definitely pinned as I have listed above. Any thoughts as what would cause that? Am I missing some rule about adding +1 to something that is master keyed? Once I got the new "general" key back to the location, it opened all of the "general" locks fine. I even pulled a few of those apart to make sure the cylinder I had taken with me wasn't a fluke, but those too were all pinned the same as above.

Thanks for any info!
Brandon_K
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:11 am

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby Squelchtone » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:20 pm

Hi,

This has some rudimentary stuff you seem to already be aware of, but there are also some different lock manufacturer specific specs, including Schlage, so maybe you'll find this useful:

http://www.sopl.us/basic-masterkeying.html

Welcome to the forum!
Squelchtone
Image
Squelchtone
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5581
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:41 pm
Location: Springfield, Massachusetts ....... United States of America

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby Brandon_K » Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:51 pm

Thanks for the reply Squelch. Oddly enough, I read that very document, cover to cover a bit before I posted this thread. There were a few things in there that I didn't know, especially how to eliminate duplicate masters in a large system, but I've never delved into anything that deep. My extent of locksmithing is for friends to rekey their house to a single key or for the non-profit I work for. Even that system isn't very complex, it's just a 2 level system with a Master and 3 groups below that.

The Schlage system that I'm referring to in the thread is for a friend. He just bought a new house, purchased the locks from Lowes and installed them himself. Lowes didn't have 7 locksets with the same code, so he got a group of 2 with the same and another group of 5. The detached garage has 2 of the same, the rest are on the house. He wants to have one key to open everything, but if they have to go to town, he wants the pet sitter to only have access to the house and not the garage. And while he hasn't come up with a scenario where he would want someone to be in the garage and not the house, he wants the option.

I know I could do a "cleaner", more proper system by starting from scratch (non-duplicate depths on the master vs the lower level keys, etc), but it's more of a "keeping honest people honest" point of view for him. He would rather it be done this way, then spend $45 on new code cut keys. Doing it this way he's only out $15 for the code cut master.

I was hoping to get the opinions from others that are more familiar with using small bitted masters and pros. In my experience in life, you can learn a lot from a book, but you can learn a lot more doing it in the field every day. Just because the book says "do it this way" doesn't mean there is a better way to do it or save myself a headache before I make one for myself.

Thanks again.
Brandon_K
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:11 am

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby Evan » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:00 pm

Brandon_K wrote:In this scenario, I have two existing codes, 37766 and 35638. I would like to repin them so that there is a master that will open both of them. Going off of what I know about Kwikset, I've devised that I could use 37968 for the master. The original cylinders would be keyed as followed;


And therein lies the rub... Unlike Kwikset locks which are able to be single step master keyed because the increment is .023", Schlage is a bit different, it must be double step master keyed because its increment of .015" is not sufficient to ensure security if you have two keys in the same system which differ by only one step in one position...

The sort of shoe-box master keying you have described is ok to do with Kwikset, it can result in some interesting pinning at times, and the master key should have at least one #7 depth and one #1 depth in its bitting if you want a system which will frustrate key picking attempts... From what you have written in your posts here, you seem to be fine keying Kwikset locks...

However your knowledge of how to deal with locks which require double step master keying is not there -- in your example of how you wish to key the locks for your friend it boils down to any of the three keys would operate any of the locks with a little wiggling and jiggling as when all is factored in the only difference between the keys is the third chamber where one key is a 6, one is a 7 and the master is 9... That has key interchange written all over it...

With Schlage locks all keys in the system must obey certain rules and there needs to be an established system parity... All keys in the system need the same pattern of odd and even cuts such as: OEOEO or EOEOE (there are others but these are the most simple to understand)... In any given bitting chamber in the system there are only 5 depths available in any keying system, even: 0, 2, 4, 6, 8; or odd: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9... Doing anything less than this will result in key interchange...

In your situation with only needing two change keys and one master key, a small rotating constant system sounds ideal... I am borrowing a example from a book here:

Bitting Parity: OOEOE

M - 35854
1 - 31894
2 - 37814

As far as which master pins to be using and which not to use, with Schlage using #2 master pins is just fine as they are .030", and I can see why they look "small" if you are only accustomed to using #3 Kwikset master pins which are .069", but are perfectly ok to use... Kwiksets are fine to use the #1 master pin of .023" or the #2 master pin of .046" with no problems as well...

If you have any further questions please let me know, if you contact me via PM or e-mail I might be able to help you source the code cut keys for your project...

~~ Evan
Evan
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:09 am
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby Brandon_K » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:57 am

Evan, most excellent reply, thank you. Very informative. After rereading after you posted, I see the errors, especially in cross keying. I never went back and compared the two other keys to a given cylinder after the master pins were installed.

I would have normally just started from scratch, but aside from my garage door key (rental, want allowed to change it to match the rest of the Kwikset) and his two keys, I have no other Schlage keys. The locksmith by me does not have a good reputation and she tried to charge me $20 per code cut key. The guy down closer to him is $15 per. There is a shop north of me that is only $4.50 for the first and $1 each additional, but they are a good 30+ minutes each way in Pittsburgh traffic.

I'll PM you. Thanks again
Brandon_K
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:11 am

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby cledry » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:29 pm

Since you are trying to go against convention. Do you at least have access to a key duplicator? If so take your 37766 and 35638, copy the 3rd cut #7 onto the key with a #6. You still will not have correct parity but at least you can avoid a #1 depth difference. If you don't have access to a key machine or a code machine how do you plan to make the MK?

Personally I would just pull the locks and go to a locksmith and wait about 5 minutes while he does it for you.
Jim
cledry
 
Posts: 1310
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:29 pm
Location: Orlando

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby cledry » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:31 pm

Brandon_K wrote:Evan, most excellent reply, thank you. Very informative. After rereading after you posted, I see the errors, especially in cross keying. I never went back and compared the two other keys to a given cylinder after the master pins were installed.

I would have normally just started from scratch, but aside from my garage door key (rental, want allowed to change it to match the rest of the Kwikset) and his two keys, I have no other Schlage keys. The locksmith by me does not have a good reputation and she tried to charge me $20 per code cut key. The guy down closer to him is $15 per. There is a shop north of me that is only $4.50 for the first and $1 each additional, but they are a good 30+ minutes each way in Pittsburgh traffic.

I'll PM you. Thanks again


Going rate for a code cut key is @ $15. The $4.50 is unusually cheap and their $1 duplicates are slightly less than the going rate too.
Jim
cledry
 
Posts: 1310
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:29 pm
Location: Orlando

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby Brandon_K » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:07 am

cledry wrote:Since you are trying to go against convention. Do you at least have access to a key duplicator? If so take your 37766 and 35638, copy the 3rd cut #7 onto the key with a #6. You still will not have correct parity but at least you can avoid a #1 depth difference. If you don't have access to a key machine or a code machine how do you plan to make the MK?

Personally I would just pull the locks and go to a locksmith and wait about 5 minutes while he does it for you.


It's hard to say I'm going against convention, when I don't know what convention is in the Schlage system and exactly why I posted here. And why would I take the locks to a locksmith? I'm more than capable of repinning the cylinders. The only "catch" to anything was trying to get away with using the existing 2 keys so that he wouldn't have to pay for 3 code cut keys ($45-60). As I said in I believe all of my posts in this thread, there *are* smiths around here who will code cut keys. The closest one to me is A) incredibly unfriendly and B) charges, IMO extortionist prices ($20 EA) for code cut keys. 3 keys from her is $60.

It's a non-issue at this point. Another forum member has been incredibly kind and cut me a few keys (as well as having gone out of his way to do a few other things that wasn't even asked of him!)
Brandon_K
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:11 am

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby cledry » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:28 am

Brandon_K wrote:
cledry wrote:Since you are trying to go against convention. Do you at least have access to a key duplicator? If so take your 37766 and 35638, copy the 3rd cut #7 onto the key with a #6. You still will not have correct parity but at least you can avoid a #1 depth difference. If you don't have access to a key machine or a code machine how do you plan to make the MK?

Personally I would just pull the locks and go to a locksmith and wait about 5 minutes while he does it for you.


It's hard to say I'm going against convention, when I don't know what convention is in the Schlage system and exactly why I posted here. And why would I take the locks to a locksmith? I'm more than capable of repinning the cylinders. The only "catch" to anything was trying to get away with using the existing 2 keys so that he wouldn't have to pay for 3 code cut keys ($45-60). As I said in I believe all of my posts in this thread, there *are* smiths around here who will code cut keys. The closest one to me is A) incredibly unfriendly and B) charges, IMO extortionist prices ($20 EA) for code cut keys. 3 keys from her is $60.

It's a non-issue at this point. Another forum member has been incredibly kind and cut me a few keys (as well as having gone out of his way to do a few other things that wasn't even asked of him!)


Capable of re-pinning a lock perhaps, but you do not yet have an understanding of masterkeying these cylinders; that is the only reason why I suggested taking them to a locksmith.

The convention is you keep the same parity and you normally use even number drops, example 2, 4, 6, 8 certainly never a 1.

Glad it all worked out for you.

What do you think a code key should cost?
Jim
cledry
 
Posts: 1310
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:29 pm
Location: Orlando

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby Evan » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:19 am

cledry wrote:What do you think a code key should cost?



In my area a code cut key costs $45 regardless of what kind of code or key it is to cut the key...

Additional charges apply to auto keys which need programming...

~~ Evan
Evan
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:09 am
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby Squelchtone » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:20 pm

Evan wrote:
cledry wrote:What do you think a code key should cost?



In my area a code cut key costs $45 regardless of what kind of code or key it is to cut the key...

Additional charges apply to auto keys which need programming...

~~ Evan


Wait a minute, you're saying if I walk into oh crap.. Boston Safe and Lock and say cut me a Schlage to 94452 they will charge me $45? Is this some sort of ploy by locksmiths to discourage people from cutting code keys that say do not duplicate on them or keys someone doesnt have physical access to, so they cant bring them to the locksmith and put them on a duplicator?

Even if the key were something more uncommon than an SC1 or KW1, lets say a Medeco AIR Level 1, and the shop had an HPC1200 or ITL9000 machine to cut Medeco Original, a Medeco key at my dealer is $15 dollars. $45 just sounds like someone is making a huge profit because they know some poor schmuck needs a key originated by code.

just my opinion on this, but yeah, I'm with cledry as well, OP, a code cut key isn't gonna be $5 bucks like a copy of a house key at home depot, $20 bucks is probably closer to the real price than whatever you have in mind and the $45 Evan mentioned. This has all made me want to get some space and depth keys and try my luck originating keys on my ILCO 027 and see if I can do a decent job or if making the area from cut to cut look good and work smoothly will turn out to be a big headache.

Squelchtone
Image
Squelchtone
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5581
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:41 pm
Location: Springfield, Massachusetts ....... United States of America

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby Evan » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:37 pm

Squelchtone wrote:Wait a minute, you're saying if I walk into oh crap.. Boston Safe and Lock and say cut me a Schlage to 94452 they will charge me $45? Is this some sort of ploy by locksmiths to discourage people from cutting code keys that say do not duplicate on them or keys someone doesnt have physical access to, so they cant bring them to the locksmith and put them on a duplicator?

Even if the key were something more uncommon than an SC1 or KW1, lets say a Medeco AIR Level 1, and the shop had an HPC1200 or ITL9000 machine to cut Medeco Original, a Medeco key at my dealer is $15 dollars. $45 just sounds like someone is making a huge profit because they know some poor schmuck needs a key originated by code.


With inquiries for code cut keys like your Schlage example where the direct bitting code is requested, some locksmiths might want you to bring them a lock keyed that way before they will make you the key...

And yes, $45 is the price for one code originated key produced in the shop, if you want the work done in the field you also have to pay for the service call fee, mileage, etc...

Many of the obscure little keys require access to vast expensive databases of codes translated into blanks with bitting info... I used to make do in the facilities office with an old set of Reed code books in binders because well most of the office furniture was old stuff and the codes for such were well documented... So were the codes for things like the CCL CAT keys and the master padlocks, etc...

That $45 charge would even apply if you bring in a key too worn to be properly duplicated that they have to decode and originate for you...

I don't see how it is a racket when you need like one or two keys originated... I can see where if you were going to buy a master key system one bitting at a time it could be an issue...

~~ Evan
Evan
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:09 am
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby Squelchtone » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:06 pm

Evan wrote:That $45 charge would even apply if you bring in a key too worn to be properly duplicated that they have to decode and originate for you...

I don't see how it is a racket when you need like one or two keys originated... I can see where if you were going to buy a master key system one bitting at a time it could be an issue...

~~ Evan



That's like walking into Jiffy Lube and paying $45 for an oil change, while every where else it's $29 .. you're telling me that doesn't seem high to you?

Some locksmith apprentice working the counter goes to the ITL9000 presses SC1 and types the direct bitting code in, clamps a blank and a key is made in 10 seconds and that's $45 dollars? that's highway robbery.. should be $20-$25 bucks, period.
Image
Squelchtone
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5581
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 1:41 pm
Location: Springfield, Massachusetts ....... United States of America

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby MBI » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:24 pm

Yeah, $45 sounds like gouging to me. Perhaps someone could get away with that if they're the only shop in town I guess, or have attempted to fix prices with the other shops if there aren't very many to deal with in the area.

I can see perhaps asking for the customer to bring in a lock for that key if they don't know the customer, to at least make some attempt to minimize the chances of someone wanting a code cut key for illicit purposes.

In this area $15 for a code cut key is the norm and $25 for a double sided or most high security keys. Obviously, that doesn't include transponder keys. I run across a little variation in those prices depending on the shop and the type of key (on some high security locks), whether it's a mobile service, etc, but so far I haven't seen any prices too far off from those I listed.

If I'm off the mark for our local prices, perhaps farmerfreak can chime in. I think he has worked for two of the bigger shops in this county.
Image
MBI
Moderator
 
Posts: 877
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:29 pm
Location: Utah, USA

Re: Help me with a Schlage master key system (SC1)

Postby Evan » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:43 pm

Squelchtone wrote:That's like walking into Jiffy Lube and paying $45 for an oil change, while every where else it's $29 .. you're telling me that doesn't seem high to you?

Some locksmith apprentice working the counter goes to the ITL9000 presses SC1 and types the direct bitting code in, clamps a blank and a key is made in 10 seconds and that's $45 dollars? that's highway robbery.. should be $20-$25 bucks, period.


I am not saying I don't agree with you, but $45 is the price that the local market has determined the cost should be, the five real locksmith shops that serve the area charge that over the counter... I haven't priced any of the mobile guys, it is possible they might do it for less, but you have to pay them to come to you for the service...

That was part of what motivated me to help the OP out with the handful of code originated keys he needed, he sounded genuine and wanted to help his friend out without putting up an arm and leg to do so...

~~ Evan
Evan
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:09 am
Location: Rhode Island

Next

Return to Locks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 7 guests