Door hardware and EN1125/EN179 lock use training

[Shrub]

If you fit a EN179 lock to a fire door is it your duty to train the staff or just the person paying? and do you do it at all?

If you fit a lock and dont explain to anyone how to use it are you liable for it if theres an accident?

My thoughts are that you just tell the person paying and explain they must tell everyone in the building how to use it but is this the correct legal way to do it,

For those that dont know, EN1125 is a rateing that means the locks are suitable for anybody whether they know where the exits are and how to operate the release of the door or not, EN179 are locks that are only suitable where the staff have been told where the exits are and how the opening mechanisum works,


The other question is this, a euro deadbolt case can not be used with a euro cylinder and called insurance approved unless the two units have been tested together, this means the cylinder you want to use must have been tested with that casement and passed off together or else they cant be used and called an insurance rated lock,

Sure you can use two locks that are insurance approved but as soon as you put them together they no longer become approved as a whole unit,

Ive been told yesterday that there are no locks on the current market that have been tested in a pair like that and got an insurance rating, if thats so what about all the ones on doors as we speak and why even make them and call them insurance spec?

Can anyone confirm or deny this? i was told by two lock suppliers within 5 minutes of each other, i asked the second as i thought the first were embelishing the truth due to lack of stock until the second said the same sort of thing as the first did,

Im unsure if ther lock case part is right as i dont remember hearing it before but in theory it does make sence in some ways but if its true why have no manbufacturers had somthing tested as a pair i wonder,

[NickBristol]

Aren't the Chubb 3C14/C, the Yale 3020 and the Walsall A221 all BS rated as a case + cylinder combo? Admittedly they are with the 1980 standard but a lot of insurers still don't specify 98 or 04 as a minimum, just BS3621. They might all fail on fire regs as I don't think any are available with a thumb-turn tho.

Is there a European-wide standard that would apply here that would 'outrank' our BS rating? Euro deadcases and cylinders are much more prevalent in mainland Europe afterall.

As for the EN179 issue, I think you'll bear some liability if you don't explain the need for training to the responsible person, who probably isn't the person that pays. Getting that person to sign off a short disclaimer agreeing they've been informed of the relevant details should give you enough protection. I always fit EN1125 on the basis that there are few buildings commercially that a member of the public could not conceivably be in so therefore EN179 wouldn't be sufficient. The cost difference is generally negligible too so why not always fit EN1125?

[Shrub]

Im not sure if those locks were tested together and rated or not but as you say they dont meet todays requirements anyway, both lock supliers told me there were no current insurance locks in that configeration and as i didnt know i had to believe them,

My issue or at least was my issue is that i have a solicitors fire door that has an ingersol fire escape on it with sc1 cylinder, the insurance are now wanting this changed, they didnt understand that the locks they asked for werent suitable for a fire door (they reccomended normal dead locks ) so i suggested what i thought was suitable but the answer that came back was a no,

Theyve asked for a 3R35 with modified fire escape handle so ive orderd that from chubb and will get them to sign a disclaimer that ive fitted what ive been told to do, a discalimer on the training side is also a good idea which i shall do,

I know most insurers including this one dont know the ratings were updated but it doesnt make it right, it puts that little bit of a get out clause in for the insurers and stuffs the customer up, i always make the customer aware regardless if im swapping the lock or not,

I wouldnt think any european regs can over rule our british standards but maybe could be used to fight your case if it came to it,

In the end ive gone with what the insurance and solicitor have ordered me to do, why give a national the work by refuseing to fit the locks, ill just get them to sign the wavers and leave it at that,