Lock design: Pins/wafers that operate rotating disk tumblers

[dls]

While up at 3am the other morning doing another night feed i came up with an idea to use disks like an abloy with a sidebar etc.
So whats so different about that you ask, well ill double them in size and add a serrated spiral to the center of each one and make them all identical.

Then ill make a conventional pin tumbler style plug which sits in the center of the spirals.

This plug will have inverted mushroom pins with the head in the plug and the tail outside, the spring will be in the plug under the head of the pin. A wafer style plug could also be used.

As the plug is turned the tail of the pins would pickup the serations in the disks, longer pins will pickup the disks early and shorter ones will pick up later the correct key would align all the diskscorectly and you know the rest.

Each disk will be made of two elements an inner and outer the inner will be serated and the outer will have the gate and false gates. the core key will allow the core to be removed while also placing the disks in changemode by dissengaging the inner and outer elements.

This would probably be less pickable because the pins would all have to be lifted prior to turning the plug.

Bumping is probably not possible.
Impressioning would probably pretty hard too.

just another idea

[mh]

and a cool one...
It decouples the keyway from the actual tumblers quite a bit.

Cheers
mh

[dls]

Thats the idea the other reason is that the changeable core can be made quite cheaply as its a simple to produce if its a truly open source lock then there is no limit on manufacturers picking up the design creating competition. the quality of the body is more important masterkeying would have to be done in the disks by adding second gates on them.
A wafer plug could be used as it would be as hard to pick as pins in this configuration and probably better suited.
The disks would have to be easily changeable without tools if the core was to be changed.

[vov35]

I like this design... it's still vulnerable to impressioning, but definetly bump proof and picking resistant...

[mh]

it's still vulnerable to impressioning

I'm not so sure about that - the way I imagine this lock design:
If the outer disks are not at the correct gate position, then they will still turn while tensioned. Maybe more scratchy than those at a gate position, but they will turn. So the key pins will not be blocked or held tight by them - how would they impression on the key blank?

Cheers
mh

[dls]

The plug becomes the key for the disks after the key is inserted into it, think of it as a two part key you would only have 4 or 5 differs on each pin so the tolerances on them could be larger and this would allow for a bit of jiggling room to help reduce impressioning.
Also if each gate and false gate where setup to match up with each pin height then the disks would always be lined up in either for every key height, once the pins are in one of the serrations lifting them will always give the same response weather they are correct or not.

[vov35]

I think they'd still mark when forced in the direction of the lock opening, as true and false set disks would move less than unset ones. and once all unset disks have been dealt with, false sets would move less than unset disks.

Also, one could make a device to weigh your key pins, how do you propose countering that?

[dls]

Weigh them ? i dont know about that but they would be inverted mushrooms with the spring behind them in the plug itself ill have to see if i can post pics of my ideas to make my descriptions clearer.
As i have dealing with locks all my life i probably assume everybody else understands the way i think which tends to be slightly outside the box because im used to having to come up with unique ideas for unique situations all the time sorry about that.

[mh]

Also, one could make a device to weigh your key pins

Not sure, why would they have different length or weight?

Cheers
mh

[dls]

Ok imagine an inside out circular saw blade with the teeth pointng inwards these teeth would get progressivly longer as you go around the disk forming a jagged spiral.
As the pins are lifted prior to contacting the spiral and each pin is the same length the key would lift each one higher or lower corresponding with one of the teeth on the spiral.
This would mean that higher cuts would pick up the spiral early and turn it further and lower cuts would pick up later turning less, what makes each disc and pin combo different is the position of the gate for the side bar. This is just like an abloy type lock but with an extra element the plug.
There could be several control disks which have to be turned correctly and set at the lowest cut so that the keyway is blocked before you can turn the plug to tension it.
There is probably a little to much complexity in this design to go with the changeable core maybe we should change the title.

[vov35]

Actually you're right.

Have I mentioned that I like this design?

What do you imagine would happen if somebody tried to force this lock?

[dls]

The pins would break leaving the plug spinning like a headless chicken destructive entry would b required, there could be 2 sidebars opposed by 180 degrees to ensure the pins go first.
Dont forget wafers could also be used in place of pins a tougher design would be able to use wafers like a chubb ava requiring no springs i have seen these barrels so full of sh1t that another lock would have given up long before,

[mh]

how about this post title?

[dls]

that will do nicely

[vov35]

The pins would break leaving the plug spinning like a headless chicken destructive entry would b required, there could be 2 sidebars opposed by 180 degrees to ensure the pins go first.
Dont forget wafers could also be used in place of pins a tougher design would be able to use wafers like a chubb ava requiring no springs i have seen these barrels so full of sh1t that another lock would have given up long before,

I'd imagine the serrations shearing off of the discs, causing the pins to spin through and pick themselves...