Lock design: Pins/wafers that operate rotating disk tumblers

[dls]

i the lowest cut the pin wouldnt protrude past the plug at all it would mean the lowest cut wouldnt move the disk at all and plug would have to travel its max distance to pick up the next higest disk.
To pick you would have to start with all the highest cuts first set all pins or wafers first and tension the plug, because the pins dont actually lift anything there would be little or no feedback by lifting them in the conventional way the tolerance would be something like + or - 0.5mm.
when you set all pins to their max and tension the plug some will get the gates and some the false ones to determine if one is set you have to rotate the disk individually which isnt possible

[mh]

so, I'm thinking this would be attacked with an overlifting attack.... all the pins would be raised to the lowest position, then the lock turned.

With the pins at the lowest position, they don't pick up disks. So turning back doesn't help much.

But in general, if such an attack worked, it would also work on Abloy locks. The reason it doesn't are the false gates.

Cheers
mh

[vov35]

by lifting the pins to their lowest position, turning to where they would end up when using a key set to such a cut, and pressing up on the pins, you can tension the lock in the direction opposite of which you turned, and set all of the pins against the disks by friction rather than traditional poor tolerances methods.
Now, this may require some work to get a tool to do this most efficiently, but it's far from difficult.

Also, space between wafers is not required to count them... a straight pick is inserted, all of them are lifted to the max position, and the pick is withdrawn, counting them as they drop.

[mh]

by lifting the pins to their lowest position, turning to where they would end up when using a key set to such a cut, and pressing up on the pins, you can tension the lock in the direction opposite of which you turned, and set all of the pins against the disks by friction

Yes, that's what I thought you meant.
But have a look at the drawing above and check how far this would turn a disk.

[vov35]

But have a look at the drawing above and check how far this would turn a disk.

... as far as it needs to to set? the keyway is first rotated in the direction opposite that in which you are picking....

[dls]

did i mention that there would be some control disks like in an abloy the main difference in this design is that these can use several cuts depending on the lowest or highest cuts they will also be in several random locations.
The fact that there will be no space between wafers does not mean you cant count them it just increases the difficulty for someone who is less experienced or has cold hands etc. the idea is to pack as much security features into the lock in the least amount of space for example more wafers no springs in either the wafers or sidebars etc.

The reason so many high security locks can be picked in my opinion is the fact that they all follow the same basic design and a proficient picker can adapt their skills to beat any additional security like an extra sidebar in a pin tumbler.

[vov35]

so you've posted a concept... where to next?

[dls]

Prototype already started im going to use some old abloy disks some are larger than the more modern ones and ill cut out the insides ill probably use the core from a 18 series l+f camlock for initial proof of concept then take it from there.

[vov35]

Progress report?

Just a thought: in a final production version, this lock's disks would have to be designed to resist manipulation by vibration. (where the lock is vibrated until all of the inherently lighter gates align at the top.

[dls]

Put the bar at the bottom or drill a small hole at 180
This is something i was already considering because i have seen so many old abloy slamlocks fail this way
The customer calls us saying "we cant get the key in the lock "and i tell them to wiggle the key back and forth to align the disks but they insist on us coming down to sort it sometimes its a three hour trip each way .
The reason for this is the older abloys had disks which where not ballanced the hole in the center was semicircle shaped and the disk had more material on one side. when the lock wears and the disks get loose they can swing around heavy side down when the door is slammed.