twisted keyway

[Rickthepick]

that would work too although you would have to twist the whole lot in situe as the key and keyway may not have matching twists

[LocksmithArmy]

dls idea would be harder to pick... as using a drill bit (while it would be wikid cool) would be as easy (ok maybe a lil more complicated) to pick as a maxus

but someone do the drill bit thing... i just wanna see it lol.

[femurat]

I found this picture and was surprised by the similarity with the key we are discussing here. I know the mechanism is different, but heck, they made this lock in 1500!!! From "La chiave: Storia e simbologia di chiavi, lucchetti e serrature" book. Title: "The key: History and Symbology of Keys, Padlocks and Locks". Caption: Two Italian padlocks from 1500, with cannon body and screw opening, inspired by a typical Turkish design.

Cheers

[locksmiths]

Six pins by four rows by ten differs gives 63,403,380,965,376 thats over sixty three million million possible key differs

[LocksmithArmy]

why do people say million million... and not just trillion (sorry terribly off topic)

[Evan]

why do people say million million... and not just trillion (sorry terribly off topic)

@LocksmithArmy:

I dunno, but then again unless there is some sort of secret dimpled lock I am not aware of, the last poster citing millions of millions of differs is quite a bit off, most dimple locks only have 3 or 4 bitting depths...

A twisted keyway would definitely need to be using dimpled bittings...

~~ Evan

[Rickthepick]

I never understood why companies concentrated so hard on key differs anyway.
Theres so many keyways and variations of lock nowadays you could get away with a few thousand differs.
Its highly unlikely one key will fit another lock. (yes i know it happens but usually on ancient stuff)
Im sure auto keys dont have anywhere near the amount of differs a door lock would and they are much more likely to be nabbed

[LocksmithArmy]

its just a selling point rick... i doubt someone was sittin in their office saying i want a lock that can have 10 billion key combinations...
and next year we will hit a trillion.

its just a way to throw big numbers at the consumer... they add pins to make it more resistant to attacks... it just so happens to make it have a larger number of bitting combinations aswell.

for instance, a 1 pin lock with a proprietary keyway will do fine to protect my house from someone trying their key... and even unauthorized key duplication (since i would be the only one with a blank) but it simply wont stop the neighbor kid with a bobby pin ... so add more pins and you begin to have real security... atleast from the neighbors bobbypin

[LocksmithArmy]

and after all the number of key combninations means nothing to a picker... we dont try every pin combination... we push till it clicks...
number of false grooves would be nice... like an american 5200 has 2 false grooves per keypin and 4 per driver (for an example only, i know some drivers are spools and some keypins only have one) how many false sets are possible... that would be a neat number to find...

one of my bramah locks has 7 sliders... 1 false groove per slider and 1 corrrect groove... so what... thats 127 possible picking combinations... while the key combinations is a MUCH higher number... 127 is still tough

a kwikset has 1 possible picking combination...
an old master 140 (with the 1 mushroom pin in chamber 3) has 2 possible picking combinations but u always get to the fake one first (unless ur raking)

security should be rated smarter huh.

[dls]

Key differs matter if you dont know anything about locks and you have to chose between two its a marketing tool used by manufacturers.

My idea is basicaly a twisted cruciform key it wouldnt be a dimple and if you could get the twist right the pins could be arranged in four straight rows .If there are four pins per row then each one would be lifted by a different bit .

[Dpruente]

I can make the lock you're talking about. I have access to a full machine shop and plenty of steel stock. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to mill it out on the cnc machine. If anyone's interested, I'll try it and see where i can get with it

[dls]

What i was thinking of was casting it out of brass

[Dpruente]

That's one thing I don't have is casting tools. the way I was gonna approach it was to mill it in halves with my cnc machine and weld them together. the key, I could cut from round stock with a lathe, or again, for added security, I could cut it with the cnc and make the cuts using a random number generator, giving it parameters of a 6 digit numeric code with 5 possible "steps" (0-2-4-6-8) and feed that data into cad for the blade of the key. I would make it a convenience key, and as far as i'm envisioning, for the prototype, 12 total pins in 2 rows of 6, each mirroring each other, giving a total of 60,466,176 differs, more than enough for this experiment, and possibly enough for a production run. if there's any security you'd all like me to add, let me know here and I'll do it if it's feasible. I'm thinking ball bearings behind the mounting screws, a hardened steel cylinder to slow/ prevent drilling of the pins, and a circular tongue and groove on the cylinder and plug face to prohibit shimming. I should be able to feasibly keep tolerances withing .0001 (one ten thousandths inch), as that's what the tolerance on the milling equipment is. I'm thinking a twist of 0.4 turns/inch, as in a cylinder with a pin separation of .025", it would ensure that one would not encounter more than 1 pin at any given drill point, making someone drill the whole 12 times to get through. I don't think a hole saw would be useful here, as the hardened steel would quickly dull it's cutting teeth.

[scriptguru]

Dpruente, fo you have any results to share with community?

[Evan]

That's one thing I don't have is casting tools. the way I was gonna approach it was to mill it in halves with my cnc machine and weld them together. the key, I could cut from round stock with a lathe, or again, for added security, I could cut it with the cnc and make the cuts using a random number generator, giving it parameters of a 6 digit numeric code with 5 possible "steps" (0-2-4-6-8) and feed that data into cad for the blade of the key. I would make it a convenience key, and as far as i'm envisioning, for the prototype, 12 total pins in 2 rows of 6, each mirroring each other, giving a total of 60,466,176 differs, more than enough for this experiment, and possibly enough for a production run. if there's any security you'd all like me to add, let me know here and I'll do it if it's feasible. I'm thinking ball bearings behind the mounting screws, a hardened steel cylinder to slow/ prevent drilling of the pins, and a circular tongue and groove on the cylinder and plug face to prohibit shimming. I should be able to feasibly keep tolerances withing .0001 (one ten thousandths inch), as that's what the tolerance on the milling equipment is. I'm thinking a twist of 0.4 turns/inch, as in a cylinder with a pin separation of .025", it would ensure that one would not encounter more than 1 pin at any given drill point, making someone drill the whole 12 times to get through. I don't think a hole saw would be useful here, as the hardened steel would quickly dull it's cutting teeth.

This project sounds like something that is better to be first attempted in resin on a rapid prototype machine or 3D printer before you attempt to do this in metal...

~~ Evan