When coding & impression are not the answer

[John Grey]

Some older non-American cars & trucks don't have the code available through the VIN; what's more they have very soft sloppy keyways and by the time many owners want a key made all they have is a SERIOUSLY smooth (read "lumpy") key.
I have tried to impression these (especially older Toyota, Nissan trucks, etc, etc) and have used quite a few tricks but there comes a time when all that becomes available is a new lock-set and that's not happy news for someone who thought they would be spending $10-$20.
I'm in my late 50's and spoke with someone awhile back quite a bit older than myself who spoke of a method of building up the key cuts and then dropping them whi8ch sounded logical. Yet thew common methods are ruined by the weather-guard closure, thin and loose pathway & often extremely cheap metals that ruin any attempt at marking through flame-carbon, heavy marker ink, or other impression-marking.
I have tried the passenger side door lock (which often has a code) and it's been a 50/50 thing. It also means going to more work than a simple key could cost when many Dealerships have access to info I won't.

Any ideas on how to cope with the above? I'm out in southern AZ and we get a great deal of older vehicles with extremely worn keys. I just can't see another investment of $2000+ for a new code machine that won't pay for itself for many years. Any ideas would be appreciated.

[raimundo]

these lumpy keys you speak of are severely worn down, to start to work on one of these, the first thing I would try is to wrap a match book cover (.025") around the key so that when you clamp it in the original side of the key machine, it is lifted up twentyfive thousands higher and the copy put in the opposite clamp is then made that much higher, this may give you a key that works, or it will give you a key to impression off since you can assume that its within a short distance of the combination that you want it to fit and most of that will be cutdown with a impressioning file.

there are other possible complications, but just cutting the copy high and trying to work it down to the line of function is the first thing I would try.

[Evan]

these lumpy keys you speak of are severely worn down, to start to work on one of these, the first thing I would try is to wrap a match book cover (.025") around the key so that when you clamp it in the original side of the key machine, it is lifted up twentyfive thousands higher and the copy put in the opposite clamp is then made that much higher, this may give you a key that works, or it will give you a key to impression off since you can assume that its within a short distance of the combination that you want it to fit and most of that will be cutdown with a impressioning file.

there are other possible complications, but just cutting the copy high and trying to work it down to the line of function is the first thing I would try.

@raimundo:

Double sided auto keys are clamped with different vise jaws in a key machine than the one where you slap the key in against the bottom and tighten it down... Auto keys are gripped by clamping in the same groove of the key for the old key (pattern) as well as new key (duplicate)...

It sounds to me from the generic description of the keys in question that they are beyond being duplicated and need to be decoded and re-cut by code...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

Any ideas on how to cope with the above? I'm out in southern AZ and we get a great deal of older vehicles with extremely worn keys. I just can't see another investment of $2000+ for a new code machine that won't pay for itself for many years. Any ideas would be appreciated.

@John Grey:

So you have a code machine ? Because you "don't want to see another investment of $2,000+ for a new one which won't pay for itself for many years"...

Which code machine(s) do you presently have ?

You can use an HPC 1200 machine to decode and then originate these older types of worn auto keys...

You have the key, so the code is knowable without even considering the lock at all if you know what you are doing... It sounds like you are taking the more complicated route of attempting to read the lock through various techniques rather than looking at the key you have in your hand -- just approach the problem differently...

~~ Evan

[unjust]

educated guesses. just as after you've impressioned a key you can cut one by code by cutting to the nearest code depth, you can do the same here. as this isn't per se about automotive locks, but about key wear, which could apply to any frequently used lock, i'll toss it up here. mods if it's too auto-y pull it or portions appropriate.

when 2 metal parts wear down, they're going to get shorter. one (should) get shorter faster, which will probably be the key rather than the internal bits.

we know the ideal state that the key could have been in e.g. the factory code depths. lets call them depths 1 2 3 and 4 for ease of use. using a micrometer or caliper on the key we can determine that the key has values that are similar to these but below. lets say 1.5, .8, 1.8 and 3.2 respectively. we know that 1.5 isn't a factory depth, so we'll guess that it's 2, .8 was probably a 1. 1.8 is iffy, it's noticeably higher than what we suspect is a worn down 2, but seems like a lot of wear for a 3. and 3.2 is probably a 4. that has us code cutting a key at 2134 and seeing if it works. if not, cut it down to 2124.

now, with a key that worn, i'll wager that the drivers side door, and ignition locks are so are heavily worn that they're no longer accurate to the factory either (and so smooth as to be difficult if not impossible to impression,) but the passenger door and trunk may much closer to the factory key. of course with enough wear on the drivers side, a key that now operates the drivers side may be so far off from the one that operates the passenger that you need 2 different bitings.

if the internals are too worn, it's conceivable that you would need to add material back to the key (say 3245 in our example) to make up for material that's worn off in the lock.

and rai's correct, you can bump the thickness with a matchbook or business card on a machine, how you fit it into the machine is just a little more creative.

[cledry]

Pop the cap off and then you can either hand file or code cut by reading the wafers easily. You can compensate somewhat for worn lock parts this way. If code cutting doesn't work go 1/2 cut shallow. If the keyway is really worn though the only option is a replacement lock. Many old cars use the same lock on driver and passenger side so if going for a used replacement always buy a passenger side lock. If you are originating a key the passenger side is best and if the key won't work the driver's side then you need to replace parts or a cylinder.

[Legion303]

We're straying into automotive discussion, which is restricted. Please remember which section this thread is in and keep it to discussion of replacing/recutting worn keys.

-steve