License to buy pins?

[NoValidTitle]

So I went to the closest shop I could find, which was mighty difficult to find a non-mobile only smith. I explained I was practicing picking as a hobby and such. I asked if I could buy a few cylinders to play with and if I could buy a few security pins to change out in the cylinders. He gave me a cylinder for free but said I need to be a licensed locksmith to buy pins. I wasn't aware of that, I didn't think repinning and such required any special license. Is that true? I'm in NJ if that matters.

[keysman]

..but said I need to be a licensed locksmith to buy pins...

The local wholesale supplier may require you to be a licensed locksmith to buy from them.. but so far as I know mere possession of security pins being a crime couldn't be true.. there are several commonly available brands of cheep deadbolts that contain security pins . Someone here can probably tell you the name of those brands, just buy one and take it apart.

[gloves]

I don't know your specific state laws, but I doubt a license is strictly necessary to just buy pins.
On the other hand I'm sure that they aren't that easy to get since few locksmiths sell them in small quantities, otherwise
the least amount is a case of hundreds AFAIK, which is simply too much for a single person needs

If local suppliers aren't an option, check here in the B/S/T section or go online shopping

Cheers

[squelchtone]

So I went to the closest shop I could find, which was mighty difficult to find a non-mobile only smith. I explained I was practicing picking as a hobby and such. I asked if I could buy a few cylinders to play with and if I could buy a few security pins to change out in the cylinders. He gave me a cylinder for free but said I need to be a licensed locksmith to buy pins. I wasn't aware of that, I didn't think repinning and such required any special license. Is that true? I'm in NJ if that matters.

Go to Walmart and buy a Brinks double sided deadbolt for $14.00, lots of fun to pick and has security pins! Take apart one side to learn and pin up 1 pin at a time, leave the other half as is for a tougher challenge. =)

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Brinks-Deadbolt/16781182

Squelchtone

[NoValidTitle]

So I went to the closest shop I could find, which was mighty difficult to find a non-mobile only smith. I explained I was practicing picking as a hobby and such. I asked if I could buy a few cylinders to play with and if I could buy a few security pins to change out in the cylinders. He gave me a cylinder for free but said I need to be a licensed locksmith to buy pins. I wasn't aware of that, I didn't think repinning and such required any special license. Is that true? I'm in NJ if that matters.

Go to Walmart and buy a Brinks double sided deadbolt for $14.00, lots of fun to pick and has security pins! Take apart one side to learn and pin up 1 pin at a time, leave the other half as is for a tougher challenge. =)

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Brinks-Deadbolt/16781182

Squelchtone

Thanks for the tip. I will probably pick one of those up. I was thinking about trying to arrange something on here. Maybe buy one of those $55 or so security pin kits and see if people would be interested in buying little baggies of pins. I really only want a few of each type.

I'm going to search to see what I can find but is there a list anywhere of what diameter pins fit in what locks?

Thanks

[Evan]

So I went to the closest shop I could find, which was mighty difficult to find a non-mobile only smith. I explained I was practicing picking as a hobby and such. I asked if I could buy a few cylinders to play with and if I could buy a few security pins to change out in the cylinders. He gave me a cylinder for free but said I need to be a licensed locksmith to buy pins. I wasn't aware of that, I didn't think repinning and such required any special license. Is that true? I'm in NJ if that matters.

@NoValidTitle:

New Jersey licenses locksmiths -- very strictly...

“Locksmithing services” means the modification, recombination, repair or installation of mechanical locking devices and electronic security systems for any type of compensation and includes repairing, rebuilding, recoding, servicing, adjusting, installing, manipulating or bypassing of a mechanical or electronic locking device, for controlled access or egress to premises, vehicles, safes, vaults, safe doors, lock boxes, automatic teller machines, or other devices for safeguarding areas where access is meant to be limited. Locksmithing services also means operating a mechanical or electronic locking device, safe or vault by means other than those intended by the manufacturer of such locking devices, safes or vaults, and consulting and providing technical advice regarding selection of hardware and locking systems of mechanical or electronic locking devices and electronic security systems. “Locksmithing services” does not include the installation of a prefabricated lock set and door knob into a door of a resident.

There is no exception for homeowners to recombinate their own locks... Only that installing a prefabricated lock set and door knob into a door is not considered an activity to which the regulations apply...

Not very nice to the locksport types or DIY-er homeowners or property managers out there but those are the rules as adopted...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

I'm going to search to see what I can find but is there a list anywhere of what diameter pins fit in what locks?

@NoValidTitle:

Most cylinder locks use pins that are .115" in diameter...
Best compatible SFIC cylinders use pins that are .108" in diameter...
Medeco angled pins are .135" in diameter in the full size cylinders...

Some padlocks and cabinet locks using pin tumbler locking have pins which are smaller in diameter and require a specific pin kit for each manufacturer...

~~ Evan

[Haddo]

I just purchased the Ultimate Challenge Practice lock, and it came with a bag of pins including a bunch of spool pins.
Great practice lock and enough pins to set up any combination you will need.

[NoValidTitle]

I'm going to search to see what I can find but is there a list anywhere of what diameter pins fit in what locks?

@NoValidTitle:

Most cylinder locks use pins that are .115" in diameter...
Best compatible SFIC cylinders use pins that are .108" in diameter...
Medeco angled pins are .135" in diameter in the full size cylinders...

Some padlocks and cabinet locks using pin tumbler locking have pins which are smaller in diameter and require a specific pin kit for each manufacturer...

~~ Evan

Sweet thanks for that info!

New Jersey licenses locksmiths -- very strictly...

“Locksmithing services” means the modification, recombination, repair or installation of mechanical locking devices and electronic security systems for any type of compensation and includes repairing, rebuilding, recoding, servicing, adjusting, installing, manipulating or bypassing of a mechanical or electronic locking device, for controlled access or egress to premises, vehicles, safes, vaults, safe doors, lock boxes, automatic teller machines, or other devices for safeguarding areas where access is meant to be limited. Locksmithing services also means operating a mechanical or electronic locking device, safe or vault by means other than those intended by the manufacturer of such locking devices, safes or vaults, and consulting and providing technical advice regarding selection of hardware and locking systems of mechanical or electronic locking devices and electronic security systems. “Locksmithing services” does not include the installation of a prefabricated lock set and door knob into a door of a resident.

There is no exception for homeowners to recombinate their own locks... Only that installing a prefabricated lock set and door knob into a door is not considered an activity to which the regulations apply...

Not very nice to the locksport types or DIY-er homeowners or property managers out there but those are the rules as adopted...

~~ Evan

The part I bolded makes me thing it's ok as long as you aren't doing it for any sort of income. So rekeying your own locks is fine. You aren't providing a service if there isn't a paying customer.

[Evan]

The part I bolded makes me thing it's ok as long as you aren't doing it for any sort of income. So rekeying your own locks is fine. You aren't providing a service if there isn't a paying customer.

@NoValidTitle:

That is one way to interpret it, however, given that there is a specific description of what activity is allowed without a license, it could be construed that everything else requires a license...

Not receiving compensation is a form of compensation -- you could not do locksmithing work for "free" and get around the licensing requirements as there is another subchapter to that administrative code which fleshes out certain exempted persons/situations -- homeowners/property managers recombination of locks is not listed as one of them... The only aspect of the regulation which allows locks to be installed, but not modified or recombinated, by unlicensed individuals is that last sentence of subchapter 1.2 which is referenced above...

I would not want to be the test case on the subject, so before you go about doing anything with locks other than collecting them or installing a prefabricated lock set or door knob [which is an explicitly exempted activity under the regulations as written (which seems intended to be an exemption for homeowners on their own homes, property management/maintenance in buildings they manage/maintain and construction workers on construction project sites)] you should consult a bar certified attorney in New Jersey who can do more specific research into how those provisions of the Administrative Code have been applied in any court cases that may have been decided in the years since those provisions were adopted...

~~ Evan

[Legion303]

Ebay.

-steve

[Eyes_Only]

That locksmith was just trying to discourage you from further progressing in your hobby in general. There's no need to go to a locksmith to buy security pins. It makes things more complicated and aggravating.

I bought this set years ago. http://www.lockpicks.com/highsecuritypinkit.aspx It contains various sizes of spool and serrated pins. A great little kit that was worth my money.

If the above kit is too costly, you can also go here http://www.clksupplies.com/shop/lock-pi ... 2_227.html and buy them separately. You only have a choice between two sizes of spools and one serrated, but those three sizes is adequate for most locks in the US. My friend bought these a while back and they're really nice and inexpensive.

Neither sites require you to prove that you're a locksmith to buy the pins or pinning kits. Many hardware and big box stores offer these kinds of services as well without being a licensed or registered locksmith business. So you'll be fine.

[Eyes_Only]

Oh, and adding to the last part of my reply. Just don't go around your area advertising and offering re-keying and locksmith related services to other people. That part will require licensing and all that good stuff. If it's just for a hobby, buying and owning pins and pin kits are fine.

There are many correspondence locksmith courses that include or sell these kits to their students without them ever proving that they have become a legitimate locksmith in the area where they live.

[Evan]

Oh, and adding to the last part of my reply. Just don't go around your area advertising and offering re-keying and locksmith related services to other people. That part will require licensing and all that good stuff. If it's just for a hobby, buying and owning pins and pin kits are fine.

There are many correspondence locksmith courses that include or sell these kits to their students without them ever proving that they have become a legitimate locksmith in the area where they live.

@Eyes_Only:

That is some fairly reckless advice... You should read the subchapters of Title 13, Chapter 31A of the New Jersey Administrative Code before you say that possessing locksmithing tools which allow you do undertake an activity which requires a state license to legally do... There are no exceptions in that code for a homeowner to recombinate or modify locking devices, only that you do not need to be licensed to install prefabricated lock sets or door knobs on a door...

~~ Evan

[Eyes_Only]

Oh, and adding to the last part of my reply. Just don't go around your area advertising and offering re-keying and locksmith related services to other people. That part will require licensing and all that good stuff. If it's just for a hobby, buying and owning pins and pin kits are fine.

There are many correspondence locksmith courses that include or sell these kits to their students without them ever proving that they have become a legitimate locksmith in the area where they live.

@Eyes_Only:

That is some fairly reckless advice... You should read the subchapters of Title 13, Chapter 31A of the New Jersey Administrative Code before you say that possessing locksmithing tools which allow you do undertake an activity which requires a state license to legally do... There are no exceptions in that code for a homeowner to recombinate or modify locking devices, only that you do not need to be licensed to install prefabricated lock sets or door knobs on a door...

~~ Evan

Yeah you're right about that. It's probably is better to go to a lawyer to consult first like you said. But does this mean that it is lawful for anyone other than a locksmith or properly licensed individual to posses any tool, device or lock part that is specific to locksmithing in NJ?

@NoValidTitle - Can you let us know how this goes and what you find out if you get to do this?