Legalities of Shipping/Owning lock picks

[GrayGh0st]

Ok ok, I know this has been dealt with A LOT, but I didn't quite see anything that answered this question. If there is, please point me to the right thread, as I somehow missed it.

I was about to order from lockpickshop.com, but first took a look at the "terms and conditions." It quotes a section from the US postal code saying that to ship via USPS you must be a "bona fide" locksmith, car manufacturer, lock manufacturer, etc. in order to receive them. A couple things bug me about this. First, I read in another post that in Maryland (my state), we don't even have locksmith licenses. So the term "bona fide," is pretty vague as I see it.

Second, I've read that shipping via other methods like UPS or FedEx is not a problem. lockpickshop.com however, only provides shipping via USPS. I suspect that 99% of people ordering from lockpickshop.com aren't "bona fide" locksmiths. I would also imagine that since lockpickshop.com only ships via USPS, they haven't run into too many problems with them.

I ALSO read in another post that, receiving picks in the mail by any service, is a no-no (they quoted a law I believe).

My question is, are my above assumptions/statements correct? Should I order directly from Southern Ordinance who ships w/ either UPS or FedEx?

Justin

[Wesson357]

From lockpicks.com:

An interesting note from one customer... "Interesting, Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary says 'bona fide' means: not counterfeit or copied. And, the word 'locksmith' means: someone who makes or repairs locks. Hell, what do you know, I AM a 'bona fide locksmith!'"

[Murph]

Justin,

First off, I'm not a locksmith, just a hobbyist.

I live in MD too and I have checked in the Maryland Law Library (BTW, I'm not a lawyer or law student) online and I spent a considerable amount of time looking for anything pertaining to the legalities of owning lockpicks. According to the Criminal Code of Maryland yes, they can be considered burgler tools, but so is a crowbar, screwdriver, glass cutters, and other items; but that is only when they are used for illegal entry. Therefore, their use of "burglar tools" covers a broad spectrum and it's used in a general sense. I keep my picks at home just like I keep my tools for my other hobbies. Say if my neighbor locks himself out of his house, sure, I'll pick the lock for him only to help my neighbor. If a neighbor locks keys in a car, well, then he'll have to call a locksmith. One, I don't have the knowledge, skills, or tools to do car locks; secondly, I know my limits, since I'm not a skilled locksmith, I wouldn't want to take the chance of damaging the inner mechanisms inside the door; thirdly, I don't want to work with car door locks. I have made myself a set of jigglers for car doorlocks. But, I went to a junkyard and purchased a cylinder to try out my jigglers.

I have some picks from South Ord mainly because I neglected to check LockPickShop.com first and lost out on a discount for being a member of this forum. That's okay, I'm happy with my picks and South Ord is good in my book nevertheless.

South Ord uses commercial couriers because the USPS lost a $2,000+ order and didn't make good on it according to South Ord; the US Post Office lost a customer. Customer service rules! My best guess is, with the LockPickShop, your package will arrive in a "plain brown wrapper".

Choose the picks you want, order them from who you want to do business with and enjoy your hobby. Whether or not you carry them wherever you go, it's up to you. Don't forget, you can make your own picks as well, lots of info in this forum about that.

Okay, lecture over.

[quasar]

has anyone had stuff posted overseas? I just wonder what customs would make of a set ofpics being sent in the mail. I assume they can tell the contents using x-rays. It may be legal, but it may be up tothe receiver to prove that.

[Jerbz]

Yeh Murph, i was thinking of the exact same thing. I was wondering, picks being illegal in the N.T, Australia, if i were to order them if customs would be able to tell. i hope they cant, but im still aiming to make my own set.

[GrayGh0st]

Thanks guys! The info is much appreciated I'll be ordering my set tonight!

If anyone has anything else to add, please, feel free.

Justin

[RangerF150]

I've got two orders of lockpicks , no problem.
Both arrived intact IE, not opened by customs.
The customs declaration just said "tools".

Unless you go walking around with lockpicks in you shirt pocket , i think you are pretty ok!

I leave mine at home, except for one tension wrench and a pick i leave in my truck , so i can pick a small padlock when stuck in traffic .
I like being stuck in traffic

[seahawk]

^^^^hehehe

[SFGOON]

I am by no means a lawyer. Bearing that in mind, simple possesion of lockpicking tools in and of itself is generally not a crime (DO check your local laws!) However, were you to be caught in a suspicious circumstance with them (hunkering in the bushes outside a liquer store at 3 in the morning) you could be charged with "possesion of theft devices". This is not limited to lockpicks though, a crowbar, screwdriver, or sledgehammer could also lead to such charges. Generall speaking, the law regards lockpicks as simple tools. There are of course, exceptions in various jurisdictions. Good idea to check your local codes. Better just to leave your gear at home.

[^kimba^]

Fraid I only know UK law, but basically here, you can carry them if you have a reason. If you can prove you have no illegal intent for their use, then they are simply tools, but it is better to be able to prove that you have a legal intent for them, rather than disprove an allegation. Some picks in the UK actually qualify as an offence weapon.

[SFGOON]

It would be a good idea to get certified as a locksmith, just as a CYA (that's Cover Your A*s) measure. Depending on your jurisdiction, it can mean anything from paying a hefty licensing fee and taking some sort of exam to simply going to the state registrar's office and "registering" for free.

[hung82000]

It's similar here in Minnesota ^kimba^, except that the burden of proof lies on the Government to prove that you were up to no good, not for the citizen to prove that they had a valid purpose. I was POST (Peace Officer Standards of Training) certified in Minnesota 4 years ago, and that was the take of our code back then. I don't believe it's changed.

As was mentioned before, they went as far as to say that when you catch someone committing a burglary you should evaluate EVERYTHING that they have. If they have a screwdriver in their car, even if it wasn't used, they advised charging for possession of burglary tools. Basically they summarized as saying simple possession of those tools is fine as long as there is no provable wrongdoing going on.

One more thing to keep in mind, unless you're actually brandishing the tools outright, there are few scenarios where a peace officer will actually know that you're carrying them. If you get stopped, you don't have to consent to a search unless there's probable cause. If it's in your pocket, unless it's a tight pocket and the officer thinks it's a weapon there should be no reason for them to ever see your tools. The exception is when you're using them, but when you're using them I assume you're going to be accessing locks that you have permission to access.

[archiebald]

Probable cause in Australia seems to be the Answer to not consenting to a search.I drink with a few police and hear the stories and know the way thay think picks don’t need to be carried around in your pocket.Unless you have a good reason.

[lajos]

my 2 cents:

1. UK law: I don't know about possession at home. But, walking around with picking tools is definitely 'possession of burglary tools' whether you like it or not. There is no concept of intent or burden of proof that I know of. Also gives 'reasonable grounds' to search you and detain you and ask questions at the police station.

2. Bearing that in mind, walking around with a pen knife, a foil for fencing and other such items is considered walking with an offencive weapon. If you've seen a fencing foil before then you know how ludicrous this is.

3. Not sure on this, but the police should not have the right to search you in the street without any good reason (ie: 2 o'clock in the morning, looking foreign (we all know the views of the British authorities on foreigners and people looking foreign - and you should know how much I hate those kinds of views).

4. Walking around at 2 o'clock in the morning with a hammer and a crowbar would be worse than walking around with lockpicks. So circumstances is definitely worse than the actual items.

5. The police doesn't give a sh*t. Seriously. Your mp3 music will put you more in trouble than your lockpicks.

6. order the stupid things from any internet site you like, they don't care (except security.org). 'Bona fide' simply means 'in good faith'. Whether it is a legal term I don't know. The first time I ordered lockpicks in Amarica over the phone from some company advertising in Soldier of Fortune he certainly didn't care much about the legality of the term, but since it was all in good faith, then no problema.

Come on people, stop worrying so much about possessing lockpicking tools and enjoy the fun
You live in North America or the EU, the police have better things to do.

L.

[lock_assassin]

If you don't intend on doing anything illegal with your picks/bypassing tools then don't worry so much, unless you have city/local/state laws that STRICTLY prohibit the possession without some sort of license or permit. I live in Indiana (USA) and we (as of right now) do not have any type of licensing requirements, nor can we even register yet. When I got my Foley-Belsaw student ID I stopped in at my local Police Station and had a meeting with the chief. I have known him for a while and spoke with him on other matters in the past. I told him I was enrolled in a locksmithing school and would most likely be in the possession of lock picks, automotive tools, and other lock bypass tools most of the time. I also know most of our police officers but I still wanted to present myself in a professional manor BEFORE I was stopped and handcuffed for possession of burglary tools. He was very nice and even asked if they could call me if there was a car they could not open if no one else on their call list could respond quick enough. I was very quick to say yes and have done one lockout for them about 2 months ago on a Grand AM.

I guess I am fortunate to have a very cool Police Chief. As long as you are honest and upfront with him you will never have a problem.

I won't even get started on the shipping side of this. When I went to the Post Office to mail Varjeal an auction item I was asked to leave when I lost my temper with the guy behind the counter. I told him I wanted to send a package to Canada and he gave me a US Priority box. I again asked if it would be OK since it was going to Canada. He said yes. I box up the item and go all the way back to the end of the line. After 30 minutes in line I get to the counter and give him the address and he says "That package can't leave the country in that box". I won't repeat what I said to him because it might get me in trouble since we aren't supposed to use bad words on here!!! I had my mom mail it out from where she works and never had a problem. No more trips to the post office for me!!!!

Just use common sense and you should be good to go.

Happy Picking...

lock_assassin