Official Launch of Locksport International

[Chrispy]

I understand the desire to saveguard the organization against legal trouble, but as it stands I see these rules as something that will simply be ignored by most members. Is that the INTENT? The "rules" are just a facade for any gunning lawyers, and the only real rule is just "use common sense"?

You said that.... not us.

edit: left out quote.

[Santos718]

dang it, quote was removed, before I could read it...

Fast catch though

[Chrispy]

dang it, quote was removed, before I could read it...

Fast catch though

The edit was to include the quote. My post didn't really make sense without the quote above it.

[Santos718]

dang it, quote was removed, before I could read it...

Fast catch though

The edit was to include the quote. My post didn't really make sense without the quote above it.

uh, yea I knew that.. pfft yeah right...hah

[vector40]

Not saying that's how it is, just asking. I wouldn't really object if so, to be honest -- I mean, why not, right? But these things do need to be clear.

[digital_blue]

I pretty much agree with your response. I wouldn't charge a friend either, and understand the need to gain the support of the locksmithing community. Your answer to #2, however, is somewhat problematic as you argue that you are following the law whereas rule 1 says that these rules take precedence over the law.

Fair enough. But basically this is pretty simple. If you're doing something totally legal and ethical you will never get "caught" and never face your actions being held up against the Rules of Conduct anyway... so what's the worry, right?

I understand what you're saying about trying to close off loopholes, however I think it is dangerous groud to start on to agree to a set of rules that have so much grey area. Saying that you or I can pick locks outside of the privacy of our own homes even through the rules explicity state we can't hurts the credibility of the whole document.

It seems like a lot of the specific rules could be replaced with something like "all members will respect all local, state, and national laws in respect to lockpicking."

Problem is, it is exceptionally difficult for members of the board to be fully aware of all local legislation in all places. And then there's interpretation of the law. It all gets pretty muddy. And that's law books written by legislators. So.... if somewhat muddy laws are the best that the lawmakers can muster up, I don't feel bad for having a Rules of Conduct that faces the same delema.

The trump card, of course, is that the board retains the right at any time to discipline (I hate the sound of that word, but for lack of a better one...) any member in the way of a suspension or even expulsion from the club. Where needed, we will make descisions to that end. Each of us have a very clear understanding of the spirit of the club and we have tried very hard to communicate that through the Rules of Conductg and Charter. If people play nice and don't get into stupid stuff, they will be fine. No one on the board is interested in being the Lockpicking Nazis. We want to have a club that will grow, and will provide a fun environment that will help to advance the hobby/sport of lockpicking. Where we find bad apple, will will sort them out, straighten them up, or ship them out as needed. All decisions will be made with the interests of the club in mind. We are just human. We'll do our best.

On a side note I wanted to thank you for all the hard work you've put into this organization. You're doing a great job.

Thank you. It certainly helps to hear that. We have put in a lot of work and we all believe very much in this idea. The response has been good thus far. As always, we would still like to see more, but I have to remind myself that Rome wasn't built in a day. There are more chapters coming. I have been working with several people looking at opening new chapters, but am always looking to hear from more. Having LSI meetings is fun. I had my first last weekend (read about it at www.locksport.com/chapters.htm ) and we had a blast. Picking locks alone in your room is fun for a while, but social interaction with others that are interested in the same things you are can't be beat!



And now....

Yes, I just read the rules through now, and I have some real misgivings. Among other things, a strict read of this code of conduct completely eliminates and invalidates not only LP101 but the entire existing sport/hobby/amateur picking community EXCEPT those people who happen to sign on. Leetle bit elitest? Leetle bit of the same stuff we fight against here from the ivory tower locksmithing community?

I understand the desire to saveguard the organization against legal trouble, but as it stands I see these rules as something that will simply be ignored by most members. Is that the INTENT? The "rules" are just a facade for any gunning lawyers, and the only real rule is just "use common sense"?

What we are striving to create with LSI is a "culture" within individual chapters that does not tolerate abuse of our skills. If someone in my chapter started bragging about picking a lock that they should not have, I would be very quick to pull them aside and rap their knuckles a bit. I would make it very clear that we don't tolerate that kind of crap (can I say crap? ) and if they are going to continue participating in the club they'd best abide by the rules. If the scenario were extreme (such as a theft or something of the like) I would simply take back their member ID and ask them not to return. That is the culture that I am creating within my own chapter. We expect the same sort of attitude from our chapter presidents. It's that simple.

The specific letter of the rules are there for a reason, but they certainly don't negate common sense. I won't say that someone shoudl disregard the rules, but I think one would know when they are "bending" the rules and I can tell you that if they are putting the reputation of LSI in jeopardy we will respond very succinctly.



Thanks to all of you for your comments. I hope I have addressed these specific issues satisfactorily. If nothing else... I could always fall back to my default slogan... "It is what it is..."

db

[vector40]

Fair enough. But basically this is pretty simple. If you're doing something totally legal and ethical you will never get "caught" and never face your actions being held up against the Rules of Conduct anyway... so what's the worry, right?

I do not think that an attitude treating the organization's rules as "whatever you want them to be" ("more like guidelines, really...") is fair to those, like zeke, who feel obliged to actually obey them.

Also, it would be nice if you at least pretended to actually be taking our feedback into consideration, rather than just humoring us.

[Varjeal]

There is no "humoring" going on at all, and we take all comments with very serious consideration. As we receive them and discuss we have to decide upon the best action (if any) that needs to be taken.

In this case it's been recognized that some of the wording could be clarified, so expect to see some changes made. We do want to leave the overal sense of the Rules of Coduct, etc. to be based on good common sense with options to reinforce the legal aspects. The code of conduct is not intented (nor should it) to be a book of law (especially as none of us are lawyers or judges), but a guide in areas that some may have questions about.

In the past while I've received emails condemning the level of "restriction" as well as the opposite, and quite frankly, we already realize we're not going to please everyone. What we are offering are what we believe to be a solid set of guidelines.

We will constantly look at and try to better the presentation and wording, but I take personal offense to anyone who thinks that we ask for comments and feedback flippantly.

[digital_blue]

I'm sorry you feel that way vector.

db

[vector40]

My apologies, Varj; db's responses seemed to be tending toward defending the current situation rather than earnestly looking for advice. That's not a condemnation, either; we all do that. A guy I know has a saying that "Too often when people ask for advice, what they're really asking for is permission."

I support the goals of LSI wholeheartedly; my interest is only that it becomes the best it can be (or if nothing else, becomes successful).

[Varjeal]

...and my apologies for snapping a bit...was having a bit of a tough day and probably read too much "tone" into the post. Yeah, we're all working to make it as good as possible, and we'll continue to strive for that.

[digital_blue]

ANNOUNCEMENT

In response to the discusssions in this thread, we have reviewed the Members Rules of Conduct and made a few small changes in the hopes of making the rules more accommodating while still offering a reasonable amount of protection to the club. The new file is posted to the LSI website at www.locksport.org.

These changes were actually setlled on some time ago, but I apparently missed the step of updating the LSI website with the new file. It was only a question in another thread that brought it to my attention.

The changes are minor, but I hope adequately address the concerns expressed by some. Please feel free to add your comments, thoughts, or concerns to this thread.

Cheers!

db

[Chrispy]

Specifically, which ones were changed?

[sivlogkart]

For me, it is a move in the right direction, and is basically right, I guess, but is too long and complex. The details spoil the spirit of the rules, in my view. You can say a lot in 10 short simple rules.

[Varjeal]

Actually, all the rules can be summed up into one.

Use common sense and respect others as yourself.

Pretty simple really.