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Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

When it comes down to it there is nothing better than manual tools for your Lock pick Set, whether they be retail, homebrew, macgyver style. DIY'ers look here.

Moderators: Kaotik, Chucklz, SFGOON

Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby clearmoon247 » Sat May 12, 2012 3:17 pm

So, i have been playing around with a Medeco Biaxial high security cylinder and i came up with an idea while learning to pick it. My idea is simple, have a set of 3 picks that, for lack of a better phrase, mimics the bitting cuts for a medeco key. I have 2 of 3 needed prototypes for a perfect set to make this work perfectly. The picks look very similar to a double half diamond but the valley between the two peaks is cut at an angle (which i matched up with the angle of the key cut). I will post more documentation and some macros tomorrow of my picks. Once i got the first pick made, i repinned my cylinder to be just a 3 pin (all same angled pins). Once it was fully assembled, i slowly raked as low as i could with the pick once. After that, i felt it click, the sidebar set! At that point it was just a matter of picking the 3 pins like any other lock. I've just finished the second pick (first one being a right angled cut, the second being a left angled cut) and it seems that after the pin is set into the proper orientation for the sidebar, a rake for the other angle wont cause it to rotate. I am really happy where this project is going and if anyone has an idea on how to improve this concept, im all ears. So, let me know what you all think of this idea.
Aim for the impossible, because there is no challenge in trying when something is known that it can be done
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby Squelchtone » Sat May 12, 2012 10:22 pm

clearmoon247 wrote:So, i have been playing around with a Medeco Biaxial high security cylinder and i came up with an idea while learning to pick it. My idea is simple, have a set of 3 picks that, for lack of a better phrase, mimics the bitting cuts for a medeco key. I have 2 of 3 needed prototypes for a perfect set to make this work perfectly. The picks look very similar to a double half diamond but the valley between the two peaks is cut at an angle (which i matched up with the angle of the key cut). I will post more documentation and some macros tomorrow of my picks. Once i got the first pick made, i repinned my cylinder to be just a 3 pin (all same angled pins). Once it was fully assembled, i slowly raked as low as i could with the pick once. After that, i felt it click, the sidebar set! At that point it was just a matter of picking the 3 pins like any other lock. I've just finished the second pick (first one being a right angled cut, the second being a left angled cut) and it seems that after the pin is set into the proper orientation for the sidebar, a rake for the other angle wont cause it to rotate. I am really happy where this project is going and if anyone has an idea on how to improve this concept, im all ears. So, let me know what you all think of this idea.


Its cool that you're discovering this on your own, but I have to let you in on some work done by a guy named Marc Tobias who wrote the book on this a couple years ago. He and his fellow researchers made code setting keys that opened most Medeco locks with only 4 keys on your keychain, they boiled down the 700 or so combinations down to 4 specially cut angle setting keys.

Here's a bunch of links related to this:

Marc Tobias' Medeco code setting keys:
Image

youtube video showing a code setting key in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOSAJLod3CU

http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=50802

http://www.thesidebar.org/insecurity/?p=147

Marc Tobias' and Toby Bluzmanis' book Medeco: Open in Thirty Seconds
http://www.lockpicks.com/open-in-thirty-seconds.aspx

Keep working on your project though, you may come up with an even better idea, and its always good to have more minds working on a problem,
Squelchtone
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby raimundo » Sat May 12, 2012 10:53 pm

you report a diamond pick with a valley at the peak that is cut to an angle. this would be for lifting a pin to the shear line and controlling the angle of the pin vis a vie the rotation of the slots on the side of the pin.

Consider that the pin raises up along the front slope of this diamond and this could set the pin to straight across due to the fact that your front slope is not angled.
after the pins raises out of the angled groove at the top of the picktip, it may have to come down a backslope that also is set to straight across, however if it is slightly engaged in the pin groove, this could be done without changing the angle.

you could also put the angle you desire on the front and back slopes of that pick to insure that it helps maintain the angle.

equally you could make a diamond pick with the twenty degree right angle and the twenty degree left angle on the front and back slopes and no valley at the top,
this diamon would rotate pins in one direction when pushing forward and the opposite direction when pulling the pick out and could do it with only one slope, rather than the attempt to compliment the angle on both sides of the pin,

When you make a valley that is angled to twist a pin from both sides, this has a bottom which restricts the height of the pin and shearline
break.

Medeco has a wide keyway, and a half diamond that has been thinned or knife edged, or just rounded on both slopes can orient a twist pin just by where it contacts that pin to the right or left of dead center which it rotates around, so that just by tilting the picktip left or right can affect the rotation of the pin, and as before, any engagement of the pin with the fingers of the sidebar can hold it in place

it is also possible to make a split pick consisting of two identical picks made of flat steel feeler gauges of between .010thousands to .013"
and then bend the tips opposite each other so that the angle widens the tip of this pick, medeco keyways being wide anyway.
Such a pick can change the angle set by small movements of the handles of the pick.
the two pieces need not move much so they can be fastened together by drilling a hole in the handle and placeing a pin across between
them with hole somewhat wider than the pin, this allows a limited movement of the two parallel picks that can change easily and from the handle controlled by you.
I have a split pick made from .010" pieces that has six peaks and five valleys that does this to all six pins or five of them simultaneously
the picks have only the one pin so they also move independently a bit so that one side could be up and the other a bit down this causes it to accomodate to any pin that is hung up on a finger in the slot and allow the pick to leave it and be forced down under it.
in short, this is one pick that can change its angle orientation any time it encounters resistance.
Wake up and smell the Kafka!!!
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby clearmoon247 » Sat May 12, 2012 11:42 pm

Firstly, i must say, its replies like this that are the reason why i love this forum.

Squelchtone,
I do know about Marc Tobias' work with the medeco and his code setting keys. I have yet to read his book on the subject, but i have seen his defcon talk on it. My only problem with the code setting keys he made are that medeco changed the codes used for the pins (from what i was able to infer in the talk) and that those keys only work on most pre-2008 medeco locks, which is the reason i went down this rabbit hole, so to speak. With that said, Marc Tobias' keys fall in a similar area as John King's medecoder, which is equally amazing in his idea, but then medeco started using ARX pins, which completely defeat his medecoder. My goal for this project is to create a tool that can defeat the sidebar at a core level, because it can attack at the principle of how the rotating pins work, acting upon the pins in a similar manor that a key does. Granted, I would love to get a copy of the code setting keys, but that's neither here nor there, lol.

Raimundo,
Can I just say, I love the way your mind works. Your idea to add the angled cuts to the front and back slopes is just genius and i plan to try that out later today and ill let you know how that works. I have seen that if a pin does get to the proper angle when tension is applied, it will stick to that angle. Additionally, i will be attempting a single diamond with L and R angled cuts. I can only assume that with that, you can just scrub the whole stack to set the bar in not much time at all. That design just screams of effectiveness by simplicity. I have noticed that thinner stock picks can cause the positioning of the pins to change, as can varying angles, which is why i had to use the largest stock i had on hand to make it work as well as it is. If the angled single diamond works out as well as I'm hoping, I may modify one of my medeco keys to have that design for the tip. As far as split picks are concerned, if you have 2 split picks at .010", what advantages would that have over a single pick at .020"? If these designs work out as well as it seems to be, i may experiment further with feeler gauge sets to find out what stock width would work best.
Aim for the impossible, because there is no challenge in trying when something is known that it can be done
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby femurat » Sun May 13, 2012 2:10 am

the advantages of a split pick? you can vary its angle by slightly moving the 2 parts. this is not possible with a single piece.

cheers :)
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby clearmoon247 » Mon May 14, 2012 12:33 am

So, update time on what I'm now calling a medeco rake. Currently my design is a double half diamond, with right angled cut in the center, center cut on the tip and left angled cut on the back end. It seems to work out okay so far. The main obstacle I'm coming across now is false gates (for lack of a better phrase). That is what is killing me with this attack method. Once a pin catches in that false gate, it wont continue rotating to the proper gate while tension is being applied. I am going to modify it further so the front peak is a left angled cut, so that when i rake, it will apply rotation in both directions more efficiently. I will post pics as soon as i have a version that I'm happy with.
Aim for the impossible, because there is no challenge in trying when something is known that it can be done
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby clearmoon247 » Thu May 17, 2012 10:39 am

Okay, so I'm quite excited to say, i have just picked a medeco biaxial lock cylinder with 5 pins, angled R, R, L, C, R with all driver pins as mushroom pins in just under 2 minutes! I thought it was a fluke, so i reinserted my key a couple times, the key is L, R, C, R, R, R to thoroughly rotate the pins away from default set after the first picking. Sure enough, i was able to pick it again, just like before, within 2 minutes. Needless to say, i couldn't be happier. I can thank all my efforts to my new pick, the Mede-rake as I'm calling it now. With the advice of raimundo, i added a left angled cut into the rake, which is a right angled cut between the peaks of the double half diamonds. By applying very light tension, scrubbing pins individually and testing an increased tension after each scrub, hoping to have the plug rotate that extra 5 degree's. Once i get that extra little amount of give, i know the pins are angled properly and i have the sidebar set. It's at this point that i can use a simple gonzo hook to any remaining pins to height, and thus beating the medeco biaxial!
I have taken a few macro shots of the mede-rake to show the cuts in the rake.
First is a profile shot of the rake
Image
Then you should be able to see the angled cuts when looking from above.
Image
Here's another view of the rake
Image
And lastly, the medeco lock that i picked
Image

Again, thank you all for your helpful advice to get me to this point.
Aim for the impossible, because there is no challenge in trying when something is known that it can be done
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Location: Orlando, FL

Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby Squelchtone » Thu May 17, 2012 5:50 pm

Hi,

I love it! very simple and effective! I'm glad you know about the Medecoder as well as Marc Tobias and his adventures with Medeco.

I will say though that ARX is a type of system Medeco used to sell in the early 90's and it was "a way" of pinning up Medeco locks randomly so if someone happens to take apart one of your locks, they cannot extrapolate that the rest of your system has the same spools, mushrooms, milled, broached, or steel insert pins in the same stack locations as the lock that was compromised. The pins they have started to put into new locks are called milled vs the full length broach for the sidebar groove. That said, they dont do all 5 or 6 pins this way, from what I have seen they throw in like 1 or 2, so JK's Medecoder could still help shorten the time needed to decode and pick one of the locks.

I'll have to make one of your Mede-rake's and see if I can pick some of these 833 padlocks with it =)

Thanks for sharing your project,
Squelchtone
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby clearmoon247 » Thu May 17, 2012 6:20 pm

Thank you so much, I feel honored and I say best of luck building your mede-rake. What I can say is that the thickness of the stock is appx 1mm. In addition to that, to form the center of the double half diamond, I used the thin square file in the general precision file set found at home depot. When starting the cuts, I used a medeco key to line up the angles for the cut. Lastly, use extremely high grit sandpaper to bring it to a mirror polish. The last step may seem either obvious or you may feel that it isn't needed, but it makes the world of difference. I started out with a 400 grit to remove the rough areas, then an 800, 1000, and lastly 2000 and it is smooth as butter. Once you have your pick and start using it, only thing to really worry about is false gates. I hope this is able to help you out, best of luck
Aim for the impossible, because there is no challenge in trying when something is known that it can be done
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby shadow11612 » Thu May 17, 2012 6:41 pm

What lock did that 20 series cylinder come out from? It has a "blind face" which is one of the ARX line of products indicators.
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby clearmoon247 » Thu May 17, 2012 8:34 pm

Specifically, the one i got can be found here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/200723713616?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I can say that it does not have ARX pins in it, because the sidebar groove is cut completely through the pins. I think that this is a cylinder that is used as a replacement for a S&G 833, because the original listing said that it was a compatible replacement for the 833.
Aim for the impossible, because there is no challenge in trying when something is known that it can be done
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby gibson » Sat May 19, 2012 7:45 pm

this thing is a mind-blower! could you please explain the angles again? do you have the left bias on the front of the rake and the back? or did you reverse it with a center cut on the rear edge? if the handle of the pick were the bow of the key, would the cuts be crl, lrl, or other? keep up the good work, this is pretty awesome stuff!
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby clearmoon247 » Sat May 19, 2012 9:28 pm

The way the angles are cut, from the tip towards the handle are, c, r, l, wo the first angle from the base of the tip towards the first peak is center cut (for now, going to experiment with other configs later), then the angle from that first peak to the first valley and the first valley to the second peak are both right angle cuts. Finally, from the second peak to the last valley I have as a left cut. To make it, I started by shaping a blank, with the form factor of the pick but none of the cuts. I then formed the two half diamonds using a single square file, ill post pics of it later, and when I made the cuts, I had it lined up with a slight offset medeco key, to get the angles proper. Once the right angle cuts were formed, I then (using the same key), made the left angle cut on the back peak to valley. After testing it out in a medeco plug with the pins and sidebar, to see how the pick manipulated the pins for rotation to verify that the cuts were good, I then gave the pick a mirror like polish and tried again, to make sure that I didn't mess anything up and sure enough, worked even better that time. Now im on the hunt for
a medeco biaxial mortise cylinderhow and a variety of key pins to test this pick out to its limits. The reason for the mortise cylinder, is because it has the screw caps so I wont have to pick the lock every time to change the configuration. So, I guess you could say, im anouncing a bounty for one and whoever can donate one to me will get 2 mede-rakes once I perfect the design, and any further design updates, the will be guarenteed a copy of each, because right now, there is only so much testing that can be done with a single kik cylinder and 6the pins, with 4 being right angle cuts.
Aim for the impossible, because there is no challenge in trying when something is known that it can be done
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby Squelchtone » Sat May 19, 2012 11:53 pm

clearmoon247:

When you are raking/picking are you using this tool at a +45/-45 degree angle as you go in and out of the keyway, or do you keep it vertical at 12 o'clock? I find that works well for me with a Raimundo Triple Bogota or an HPC Half Diamond.

Thanks
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Re: Medeco Pin Setting Pick Set

Postby clearmoon247 » Sun May 20, 2012 12:08 am

I go at it from the 12 o'clock position to mimic the cuts of a standard key because a key and the rake have the same angles for cuts
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