M. 130 picks with only 2 pins set. Drive pins entering plug?

[ww85]

So I'm fairly new to locksport. I've known the basics for a while now and I've picked a few wafer locks at my old job (campus security) but I only recently bought my first set of picks and practice locks. One of the locks I got to play with was a Master 130 padlock.

It's a pretty basic 4 pin lock, but it's behaving strangely. I've discovered I can pick it by only setting the first two pins and conveniently enough, they set in order front to back. Still, it's a 4 pin lock so I'm trying to understand why this works.

Looking at the key, the two back pins should need to be fully pressed to set them. The key is thickest at the tip, and in fact the notches are about a hair's width from being as thick as the "teeth" that surround them.

If partially pressed there is definite collision at the shear line on those back pins. Fully pressing them is very difficult because the 2nd pin is very shallow and the keyway makes it hard for my short hook to set the backpins without oversetting the 2nd pin, but I'm pretty sure I've picked it at least once that way.

Is it possible that the key pins are so small on the two back pins that when "at rest" the driver pins pass the shear line and completely enter the plug?

That's the only explanation I can come up with, but that seems strange to me. By keying their locks in this way, Master is effectively eliminating the need to pick certain pins...

[Solomon]

It's possible, yeah... I have a master padlock which does something similar. Pin 1 is a very shallow cut, ie. needs pushed all the way down, and when picking it doesn't need to be set for the lock to open. It sets in the order 4-3-2, then pin 1 actually refuses to move (and this is under the lightest of tension). Very bizarre, considering the key works perfectly.

The driver pins in this case are probably inside the plug, and it just so happens to be the perfect length to keep the spring from getting trapped, so it still turns properly. I guess we can add this to the list of reasons why master locks really suck.

[weilawei]

I've noticed that in cheaper/dirtier locks, often all the driver pins aren't always pushed back across the shear line into the plug. This means that if you close a lock gently, it might only be held closed by 1 or 2 pins. This happens consistently with some of the padlocks I own. Solution? Hit it a few times, shake it, stuff like that. Or clean/lubricate/buy better locks.

[ww85]

I've closed it "violently", shaken it, smacked it hard in all six directions, and raked it a few times.

All the pins feel like they're in the proper resting position when I feel around with my hook, but it still picks with just the front two pins set.

The drive pins must be at the perfect height to turn with the plug without trapping the spring. Hilarity.

It's funny, up until now I thought that "Master" made good locks. In fact, when I was buying my practice locks I purposely went out of my way to buy a cheaper lock that would be easier to pick. I went with the shoddiest looking lock in the store, an "American" Yen Series 30. It's body is cast aluminum, the pins are spaced pretty far apart judging from the key, and it has a nice, wide open keyway (though it is recessed a bit).

I spent an hour on it, assuming the whole time that I was a terrible failure of a beginner and was clearly doing something very wrong.

Apparently I did. I tried to pick an American lock as a beginner. Doing some research on it last night, I found out that it has 3 serrated driver pins, 2 spool driver pins, and all 5 of the key pins are serrated as well. Talk about overkill...

[Solomon]

Heh.

Yeah, american locks are definately trickier... wouldn't worry about the serrated key pins though, they're more to stop reverse picking and make raking harder. Master locks are really lame, even the pro series is a joke from what I've seen.

Good to see you're enjoying things so far... take a crack at the american and see how you get on, there is quite a difference in the way the pins feel when they set properly so I don't think it'll give you an insanely hard time.

[ww85]

Heh.

Yeah, american locks are definately trickier... wouldn't worry about the serrated key pins though, they're more to stop reverse picking and make raking harder. Master locks are really lame, even the pro series is a joke from what I've seen.

Good to see you're enjoying things so far... take a crack at the american and see how you get on, there is quite a difference in the way the pins feel when they set properly so I don't think it'll give you an insanely hard time.

I'm sure I'll get it eventually, but I tried starting with that over the weekend, and it's definitely not a good lock for first timers.

By reverse picking do you mean overlifting? That's definitely a problem I was having with it since the set I got has a very short hook. It's hard to not overlift front pins when setting back pins, and I definitely noticed that pins weren't dropping back into place. Hopefully it will get better as I refine my technique.

[Solomon]

Yep, that's the stuff. Some people like to deliberately overset pins and drop them back down to the shear line rather than having to deal with the serrations. Serrated key pins put a stop to that, as does countermilling. Nasty stuff, that.

[ww85]

Unrelated to the thread (I apologize) but since I've got your ear and you seem to understand the quality/difficulty range covered by the Master 130 and the American, is there a practice lock you'd recommend that's a bit more intermediate?

Say something with 5 (non-security) pins that has decent spacing so I can get a feel for individual pins? I still find myself getting lost among the back pins sometimes. Ideally the keyway shouldn't be too restrictive either. My choice of picks at this point is very limited, so a well placed ward can make learning difficult...

[WolfSpring]

Master 140 used to be good for the step to security pins as it had one, but I think I read LSA said they now have three, but that still might be a good step.

[ww85]

I thought the 130 and the 140 used the same cylinder. Came across that tidbit when I was trying to figure out what was up with the back pins on my 130. Was I misinformed?