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Are Electronic keypad locks on Gun safes more secure than...

Information about locks themselves. Questions, tips and lock diagram information should be posted here.

Moderators: zeke79, keysman

Are Electronic keypad locks on Gun safes more secure than...

Postby 2nd2none » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:17 am

Are Electronic keypad locks for gun safes more secure than the regular dial locks. The ones I'm looking at are Seegeant & Greenleaf. They say the electronic one is UL group 1 and the Dial lock is UL group 2. I don't know crap about locks(yet) so PLEASE HELP ME.

Thanks Guys/Gals.
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Postby Chucklz » Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:44 am

If you are looking at a gun safe, I really would say to evaluate the other charactersitcs of the container rather than nitpicking over a group 1 or 2 lock. Look for a container that not only has a strong thick door but that all 6 sides of the box are of roughly equal strength. A thick door does you nothing, if someone could cut the sides of your safe with little more than a hammer and chisel of some sort. How many locking bolts are there? Are they distributed on more than 1 side of the door? 3? Can the door be removed by cutting/ punching the hinges? Will the case accumulate moisture that could harm your firearms? Is there a seperately locking compartnment for ammunition? for handguns?

About your lock choice. Will more than one person need access to the safe? If so, an SG electronic will probably be a better choice. How often will you be using it? If the safe is infrequent use, a battery powered lock is just not as practical idea as an "analog" one.
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Postby 2nd2none » Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:20 am

It's 10ga body and has 14 locking bolts, I think 6 on each side and 2 on the top, I plan on bolting it to the floor as well. I will be the only one using the safe. The safe will have a dehumidifier in it as well. I'm not to concerned about the batteries because they could be replaced easily. I do realize that there are other ways to get into safe other than the lock. But I do want the better lock which is more secure, even if it's pointless. So any other help is greatful.

Thanks
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Postby Varjeal » Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:32 am

If you really want a secure lock, go for an S&G 1MP lock. MP=Manipulation proof. 8)
*insert witty comment here*
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Postby Chucklz » Fri Dec 19, 2003 7:04 am

How much are you willing to spend on the lock? The digital lock is not vulnerable to the same kinds of attacks the manual one is. If those are your only choices, go for the Group 1 lock. If you are willing to spend an extra say 600-1000 US, and want a lock that even the 'smith who installs it will drool over go seek out a Kaba Mas X-09 lock. It will probably be overkill , but its geek/ neato factor will be amazing. You can tell people you lock your skeet gun with the same lock the DoD uses to lock up all highly classified materials.
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Postby Varjeal » Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:18 am

Mmmmm...x-09....*droooool*.
*insert witty comment here*
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Postby 2nd2none » Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:44 am

HeHe $600-$1000 is a bit much, lol(for me anyway). The safe company only offers those two basic S&G locks. I guess Electronic it is.
Thanks for the input.
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Postby spunoff » Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:11 pm

the s&g has a motor drive to retract the bolt, it does not deadlock.
the LaGard 33e has a deadlocking bolt.battery life (duracell alkaline ) is well over 12 months with daily use,eg:banks and if the battery goes flat and you ignore the warning you can still jumpstart it to get it open.
it has too many options to list, see the website.

i hope this helps
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Postby Guitar_J » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:13 am

wow.. that x-09 is one hardcore lock!... and it's made in Lexington KY.. thats just a few hours drive from me...

Doubt they'd let me in the mfg. plant... that'd be neat if there was a lock company that would let you tour their facilities...
I wish the world was flat like the old days, and I could travel just by folding the map.
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Yeah... I like the X09

Postby hzatorsk » Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:42 am

The best thing about the MAS X-0# series is the drilling templates are freely published their installation guide (available from their website). They are so confident in the ability of the lock to prevent direct manipulation... they just go right ahead and tell the world how to drill it. :)
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Postby mcm151201 » Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:25 am

The difference between mechanical and electronic depends on the use of the safe.

Electronic: For when the safe is used very regularly, nice because you can easily change combo if you think someone has stolen it. However, if anything within the lock malfunctions your screwed. A locksmith will have to find some way of openeing it which will normally mean you having to buy a new safe.

Mechanical: If the combo is lost or something in the lock goes wrong, a locksmith can simply make a few drills holes (and fill them back up again) to open your safe. Then you just have to pay for a new lock (not as much as a new safe).

At least that's my opinion :)
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Postby hzatorsk » Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:52 am

Electronic locks are also drilled open. Drilling can go after the latching mechanism, bypassing either type of lock... or in the case of the mechanical lock, drilling can expose the wheelpack to allow manipulation. Repair of the drilling is the same on both safes.

Safes generally do not need replaced because they are drilled. Drills on the other hand are frequently replaced because of the safes!!!
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Postby macaba » Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:05 am

Keypad safes aren't particularly good for regular use, as a skilled breaker could tell the number of your combo by how worn the buttons are. Plus... if you dusted it for finger-prints, you could also find out the numbers. Then its just the case of working out the combo as with a 4 number combo, there are 4 to the power of 4 orders (256). So unless your electronic UC 1 safe has a like 2 minute delay between entering a wrong combo (2 * 256 = lots of time! Thats assuming of course, that the last combo will be the right one, which of course it won't!) It might not be pratical.

Thats why the x0-9 is SOOO GOOD *drools* Because it combines the advantages of digital (able to program delays) with mech (can't tell combo from worn dial). *drools even more*

Hope this gives a little insight in how common sense and forensics could be the key (*snores* what.....oh.....- No pun intended :lol: )

8)
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Postby Romstar » Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:26 am

The Kaba-Mas X-09 lock is vulnerable to exploit.

That is all I am going to tell you, quite simply because there is no reason why anyone needs that information.

I spent a very long time considering the problem of this lock, and it's mechanism, and the electronics. Someone else was right in that Kaba publishes the drilling information on these locks. They really are near immune to almost any attack.

The vulnerability lies somewhere else. When you stop thinking like a safe man, you start to think of other avenues of manipulation.

The X-09 is vulnerable. They have been made aware, but as of this date, I have yet to see any change in this lock.

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Postby hzatorsk » Mon Jul 26, 2004 6:58 am

macaba,

Yes... you do bring up a good point on any pushbutton lock whether it is electronic or mechanical. Broad spectrum UV lamps tend to glow the fingerprint oils and grime on the buttons handled the most frequently. But the electronic dial locks like the MAS series don't typically give away positioning as it varies each time the dial is used.

Romstar,

I've heard that before about exploits on the X-0# series... but I too have not heard of anything beyond dial popping and drilling that actually worked. I've twice now had an X-07 in my possession and could not think through a manipulating solution via the dial or display. I've even had a scope on the RF from the lock and found no discernable patterns that I could tie to the working of the combination.

Obviously I am not asking you to spill your secret, but I can't handle the lock for more than a few minutes without it freezing up on me for 'attempted manipulation'. Have you, yourself actually seen your exploit work on the lock? (I am assuming the serial number isn't available during the lockout) If so... consider me sufficently impressed!

If I ran into lockout with this thing... I would have to go around it.

Harold
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