RKS: Robotic Key System Q&A with John Loughlin of SCI

[UWSDWF]

Split from: Original thread!

Hi Racoon-

I'm John Loughlin and would love to at least try to answer any questions you or anyone might have.

Regarding re-combinating the RKS cylinder; in the current generation the discs can be re-combinated by relocating the fly and/or push pin. You can see some detailed photos at www.stantonconcepts.us/rks-gallery.html

John

FYI:
John P. Loughlin joined Stanton Concepts in 2002 and is responsible for general management and concept development. From 2000 to 2002 John had been at Jedai Broadband where he was a founding member and led the Physical Design Group. From 1992 to 2000 John served in various management positions with Johanson Manufacturing Corporation, a leader in the design and manufacture of high precision electronic and fiber optic components. In addition, John served as the Managing Director of Johanson's Swiss subsidiary. Prior to this time, he served in engineering management positions at E-Systems, a provider of sophisticated communications systems for the US government, LICOM Inc., a manufacturer of fiber optic transmission equipment, and General Optronics Corp., a manufacturer of laser diodes and fiber optic communication systems. John holds several patents relating to fiber optic devices. (stantonconcepts.us)

[Schuyler]

Hey John!

I'm glad to see things seem to be going well for you. I'm really excited to see you on here. Drop me a line if you need anything.

- Schuyler

[greyman]

John

Did you review the article that Han Fey put together about the RKS before it was put out on the web? Is that currently the best source of public domain information on your product?

greyman

[johnloughlin]

Hi Greyman-

I did review Han's paper before it was released and it is the most in-depth piece available to the public. You can also visit our web site www.stantonconcepts.us there are some animation clips and additional photos that help illustrate the concept.

John

[Gordon Airporte]

I sorry if this is kind of blunt, but: Modern Abloy disc locks are (virtually) unpickable and have a vastly simpler key. (No moving parts, no batteries, more compact no matter what...) Where do you compete with them?

[TOWCH]

I can't speak for RKS but IMO:

Abloy's are difficult but not necessarily tamper evident.

The key method of dialing disc tumblers exposes a lock to decoding vulnerabilities that must be addressed to be truly tamper evident.

Provided the RKS is free of more serious NDE vulnerabilities than Abloy(a difficult task) that would qualify it as a superior seal lock.


If used as a recycluable seal, it would be cool to see masterkeyed discs with a perforated laminate coating over the gates, and a mechanism to block further manipulation of the discs on opening. This would force someone to expose their key bitting when opening the lock to where even someone with the key could not compromise the container without leaving evidence.

Make the lock core removable, and spent seals can be sent back to the factory for recycling in exchange for new cores. Then a simple serial number check comparing outgoing to incoming to ensure the lock hasn't been swapped.

The electronic keys have the advantage of being dynamic and reprogramable, where traditional keys are more difficult to manage rekeying.

[n2oah]

The electronic keys have the advantage of being dynamic and reprogramable, where traditional keys are more difficult to manage rekeying.

Also, I don't see RKS keys as being very decode-able. Even so, if you manage to snag the code from one, it takes a while to manually dial it in. In the case of Abloy, someone could "borrow" your key, and within a few minutes have another operating key produced from a clamshell-type molding kit, or have the key code.

[n2oah]

The electronic keys have the advantage of being dynamic and reprogramable, where traditional keys are more difficult to manage rekeying.

Also, I don't see RKS keys as being very decode-able. Even so, if you manage to snag the code from one, it takes a while to manually dial it in. In the case of Abloy, someone could "borrow" your key, and within a few minutes have another operating key produced from a clamshell-type molding kit, or have the key code.

[n2oah]

(No moving parts, no batteries, more compact no matter what...)

Abloys have no moving parts? Then what the heck do those disks do?

[mh]

Abloy keys don't have moving parts.

Also, I don't see RKS keys as being very decode-able. Even so, if you manage to snag the code from one, it takes a while to manually dial it in. In the case of Abloy, someone could "borrow" your key, and within a few minutes have another operating key produced from a clamshell-type molding kit, or have the key code.

Of course the key can be designed to reveal the code only upon further authorization, such as a PIN code. That's a clear advantage of any kind of electronic key.

Other than that, there's no specific advantage against decoding designed into the RKS, the mechanical interface is not encrypted in any way, you just need the proper decoding 'tool', e.g. a cutaway lock or an electro-mechanical device.
Also a non-authorized copy of the dialing tool (the key) is not very difficult to make. It might be heavily protected by IPRs, but the bad guys wouldn't care about that.

Cheers,
mh

[mh]

If used as a recycluable seal, it would be cool to see masterkeyed discs with a perforated laminate coating over the gates, and a mechanism to block further manipulation of the discs on opening. This would force someone to expose their key bitting when opening the lock to where even someone with the key could not compromise the container without leaving evidence.

A very interesting concept - although another idea (that I think I read about somwhere before)
would be to not masterkey the locks, but to install a back-office infrastructure, where the codes are sent to the key "over the phone". That would also record the opening times etc.

Cheers,
mh

[johnloughlin]

I sorry if this is kind of blunt, but: Modern Abloy disc locks are (virtually) unpickable and have a vastly simpler key. (No moving parts, no batteries, more compact no matter what...) Where do you compete with them?

Hi Gordon-

The Abloy system is a beautifully engineered, very effective and secure mechanism. The RKS cylinder is similar in mechanical complexity to the Abloy clyinder, although with fewer parts. You are correct the Abloy key is vastly simpler and less expensive than the RKS key/dialer. However the RKS provides the following advantages:

1. Audit trail; A RKS key can provide a record of who, when and even where a RKS lock has been opened

2. Key Control; the key/dialer can incorporate features that limit use to only authorized users at specific time and places using software, biometrics, encryption, GPS etc. Also, an authorized user with a full featured RKS key can open any RKS cylinder, anywhere. The RKS allows a container to be locked in say Asia, opened by a customs agent in New York and opened at it’s final destination. A record is made of each event, the lock is secure, reliable, and low cost.

3. Master Keying; if a traditional master keyed cylinder is disassembled it can be decoded and compromise an entire system. If a RKS cylinder is disassembled it will only yield coding information for that one cylinder.

4. No Keyway; The RKS cylinder has no keyway. Not having a keyway limits vandalism attacks, manipulation of individual discs and has environmental advantages.

Traditional pin tumbler and disc cylinders are great for many, many applications. The RKS provides a simple high security cylinder with all the features and benefits of the continuously evolving digital age.

John

[UWSDWF]

...

1. Audit trail; A RKS key can provide a record of who, when and even where a RKS lock has been opened
...

I see on your site there is a manual dialer... would this not effectively remove the accuracy of the audit trail?

[johnloughlin]

A manual dialer provides an authorized user who knows the combination a backup means to open the lock. Although it's true that a manual dialer may not provide an audit trail the cylinder might be equiped with a sensor that could detect and record any motion of the drive disc. This sensor would likely be battery powered and be independant of the locking mechanism.

[Gordon Airporte]

(No moving parts, no batteries, more compact no matter what...)

Abloys have no moving parts? Then what the heck do those disks do?

Sorry - I was talking specifically about the key, and taking for granted that the cylinders are similar enough that there's no big advantage one way or the other.

Thanks for replying John, it's very cool to have people in the industry taking part in the enthusiast community.
Those are all really useful features - I was thinking of this more as an Abloy with way more combinations at the cost of an overcomplicated key and I missed all of the advantages of the electronic system being able to manage the codes of individual keys.

Now I suppose that the advantage of RKS vs. other electronic key/card systems out there is that the lock mechanism is more compact and robust.