Corbin Locks -- Ball Bearings?

[misterj]

Hey Everyone-

Did older Corbin locks have ball-bearings on top of the pins? (dated late 1950s)

At the high school, before they changed the locks, everything was on a master system (basically three keys fit the entire building, an interior master (classrooms), an administration key (offices) and an exterior master--aside from some newer locks here and there that were replaced). Every lock was a Corbin classroom function knob with the old style logo (the word Corbin filling in an oval).

The keys were all 5-pin, on "SK1" blanks. I don't think the building was mastered, but it's possible that it was and they abandoned that at some point, just giving everyone a classroom master or something.

I always noticed that the locks worked a lot more smoothly than any others I'd ever used, and upon closer inspection, it appeared that there were little metal balls above the pins. Is this why?

Those locks were really nice--they worked beautifully and were rock-solid.

They recently replaced them with Corbin-Russwin levers, with some sort of interchangeable cores to them (I don't think they're SFIC, though...they look smaller than Schlage LFIC but the keyway section looks larger than an SFIC), and a everything is on the L4 keyway at 5 pins. They are some of the worse locks I've encountered. Several times I've gotten the key stuck in the cylinder because instead of just throwing back the latch, it pushes down the inside lever to do so, then it tends to jam up at that point and not allow the key or the lever to be turned back. The freewheeling levers sag very badly, and they just feel cheap. Some of it may be the installation--those guys were a bit sketchy.
Anyone else have any better experience with Corbin-Russwin?

I wanted to get some of the old Corbin Locks, but that didn't work out. Apparently they were "junk anyway" and the construction people were getting rid of them, no ifs ands or buts.

[unbreakable]

I have a few old Corbins like this, they put a ball bearing at the bottom of the pin stack so that it comes in contact with the key.

As a lock is used many times, the key will wear away at the point on the brass pin, eventually causing a change in the overall length of the key pin.

The ball bearing in the Corbin will wear more evenly than a pin would and cause less change to the length of the key pin. They also make insertion and removal of the key much smoother.
If I recall correctly they don't always have ball bearings in all pin stacks, perhaps it was just the first one of two?
Don't quote me on that bit, but thats what I recall right now and it makes sense as the 1st pin is subject to the most wear, followed by the 2nd, etc.
I'm not sure whether the ball bearings were a standard factory install and how long they continued doing this for, someone else can hopefully chime in on that one.

It's too bad they wouldn't let you keep any of them Corbin's are great locks!

Unbreakable

[misterj]

They would have frowned upon my taking them apart, but it's entirely possible that the bearings were only on the first one or two pins. From what I saw, it looked like every Corbin lock in the building had bearings in it.

They were obviously well made...over 50 years and they worked like they were brand new.

I remember the classroom key had a really weird bitting, I don't know the max depth on an SK1 key, but assuming it's 9, it was something like 49994...just a little bit strange, the one that I basically called mine was pretty worn, I think it may have been an original because it had the "P & F Corbin New Britain CT" embossed on it, with no indication of it being a copy. The middle section had no bumps in it, so the key was basically flat.

The design of my key specifically was pretty neat, they looked just like these: http://ny-image3.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.114767375.jpg

Everyone else just had Ilco SK1 keys.

[aussielocky]

Such bearings also frustrate the hell out of anyone trying to impression the lock !!

[Schuyler]

Such bearings also frustrate the hell out of anyone trying to impression the lock !!

Huh! I never thought of that!

[Evan]

misterj:

The locks could have been mastered and like you infer the master keys given out at some point in the past... This explanation makes the most sense given the situation you have described... The "master key" for the interior was probably once the master key for the entire building and over time someone in the office wanted to make that area more secure for whatever reason so a separate key for it was created so that it could be decided who would be able to have access by means of issuing another key to those who should be allowed entry into the offices when they are closed/locked... As far as the exterior of the building is concerned, those locks may have been changed several times along the history of their use for various reasons: to control who can get in and when the building is officially "open and unlocked" in the morning since only certain people would be issued the exterior key, because somewhere along the history of the school a student may have obtained a key to the building and the school wanted to keep that person out of the facility off hours, or it was because someone was fired and they perhaps had a duplicate key and a grudge and it was desired to keep them out by an exterior re-lock rather than creating an entirely new keying system...

As for your old cylinders and keys, "SK1" is the ilco-ez number for Corbin-Russwin keyway 77 in 5-pin... As for the ball bearings in the pin chambers, on older Corbin-Russwin cylinders they were used to prevent wear on the brass pins because in those days the available brass alloys were much softer than the modern brass or nickel-silver alloys used for present day pins so the use of ball bearings which were much harder extended the life of the pins as far as wearing from the use of keys was concerned... The ball bearings could be used in all chambers and were in the earliest locks but that is not recommended as it makes locks configured that way vulnerable to "combing"... The school got all the value it should have out of the old locks and keys, 50 years on the same slightly modified keying system is about three times the normal serviceable lifespan for a keying system... Sadly the old locksets had to be upgraded for modern accessibility standards...

I am curious as to your new LFIC system, as to why it was selected on the default L4 keyway and only pinned to 5-pins rather than the standard 6-pins baffles me... It sounds to me like you are suffering from LBS, "Lowest Bid Syndrome" and in addition to what amounts to a private residence using a Schlage C keyway or Kwikset KW1, you now have a brand new keying system for which anyone can duplicate their keys just about anywhere greatly shortens the serviceable lifespan of the system right out of the box...

As for the issue of the key getting stuck in the door occasionally, this sounds like poor door prep on the part of the installers of the new locks... With the 50+ year old original locks, they might have been worn in ways which allowed the locks to continue to function on a sagging door due to the building settling or loose hinges, etc... Doors have to be square in the opening and hung on tight hinges which aren't worn or sagging to ensure proper functioning... Were new strike plates installed with the new locks ? Often times the older ones used with the previous locks aren't 100% compatible with the new locks and this can cause problems like the one you described... A lazy install crew will leave as much old in place rather than having to alter it to fit the new locks because figuring out how to modify an existing strike plate to function with a new lock while not looking like a total butcher job takes some skill... The proper strike plate must be used with each different type of lock set for each different manufacturer, as safety and the security of the door opening depends on the lock working properly and being correctly aligned in the closed position and with more modern locks ensuring proper operation of the deadlatching tab on or near the latch...

~~ Evan

[misterj]

I have a feeling that at one time there were many more than three keys to the building, but that the staff decided to abandon the individual operating keys and issue everyone masters...by the time they replaced the old Corbins, nearly everyone had an exterior door master and a classroom master.

There were locks here and there that were replaced or added--for instance all of the bathrooms originally did not have locks, but at some point the doors were drilled out for them and Storeroom function US Locks in the AR1 keyway were put onto them. Also, the music wing was keyed differently at one point, most of the hardware was "LSDA" or "Ultra", but it was a really funky keyway--looked a little bit like a Best J/K/L/M with all of the ridges in it, but the keys were just square ones with no markings, so I never figured out what they were--all I know was they were 6 pins.

The wiring closets were changed over to PDQ locks with SC1 keyways at one point, probably when they put in all the catalyst switches.

The vast majority of the building was still Corbin, though.

Basically the entire district is on unrestricted keyways, and I've never seen a key that said so much as do not duplicate on it. The middle school is just Schlage LFIC E keyways, the key I had access to was a grand master, fit every outside door, inside door, and cabinet in the building...I imagine there were lower level keys, I'd just never seen any. The front doors were older Primus cores, but I don't understand why they did that when the rest of the exterior doors were still "E" keyways on some sort of master.

When I saw what they were using for the new keying, I couldn't believe it. The current system is temporary, they're basically construction cores. Every keyholder has a key that works on absolutely everything, which is a terrible idea. They did put in the permanent cores for the outside doors, but they're still L4, but just 6 pin instead of five. Still an unrestricted system, with not so much as "Do not duplicate" stamped on the keys.

They really messed up the functions on some doors, too. The server room is a classroom function lock, which is insane--There is absolutely no reason that that room should ever be left unlocked...same with the wiring closets, they're classroom function as well...yet department offices are storeroom. The people in charge of it seem like a bunch of morons to me.

[Evan]

They really messed up the functions on some doors, too. The server room is a classroom function lock, which is insane--There is absolutely no reason that that room should ever be left unlocked...same with the wiring closets, they're classroom function as well...yet department offices are storeroom. The people in charge of it seem like a bunch of morons to me.

Sounds more like the wrong locks were installed on the wrong doors... Classroom function is ok to use on an office but you would probably want an office function with either a small knob on the interior of the door or stopworks buttons on the edge of the door to allow for locking an unlocked office door without requiring the use of a key...

~~ Evan

[gswimfrk]

Thats very bad. The contractors should be FIRED!

[Squelchtone]

I recently picked up a Corbin Cabinet Lock at an antique store for $8.00. The insides were completely gunked up, so I cleaned it out with some O'Reilly Carb & Choke Cleaner. I'm not sure if this is harmful to the inner workings, but it did a great job of cleaning them. Once I started examining the lock, I realized to my surprise that there were ball bearings underneath at least the first two pin stacks. I believe this is similar to the experience of the OP. The first stack of pins is set oddly deep into the lock, almost a full centimeter. By comparison a Defiant deadbolt's first stack is recessed about half a centimeter into the plug. The lock has four pin stacks total and has very weak springs.

If you look closely at the fourth picture you can see the second ball bearing. I took all of these pictures with my cell phone, and believe me, it was not easy to get those ball bearings to show up in the pictures.

https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Big%20dawg%20%281%29/Lockpicking101/Corbin%20Ball%20Bearings/IMAG7882.jpg?w=AAAjXCreGFHzn0A1r60P_TfYqVAeD_D5yY_Tp0IVePwmfA
https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Big%20dawg%20%281%29/Lockpicking101/Corbin%20Ball%20Bearings/IMAG7911.jpg?w=AACHk1BAT1LacXrQXHuCxqsKAvZElVv5W2w49EE2L2A3ww
https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Big%20dawg%20%281%29/Lockpicking101/Corbin%20Ball%20Bearings/IMAG7891.jpg?w=AADncG6ELvguymJS_DrmfCsOaRuNUva4_r_SskEfk1HZXA
https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Big%20dawg%20%281%29/Lockpicking101/Corbin%20Ball%20Bearings/IMAG7897.jpg?w=AAAlECCpMhc89DnxCybzGCRKQevpEZCZI0Ls-orQBbsO_Q

[jeffmoss26]

1) this is a 3 year old post
2) no pictures show up

[CarsonReidDavis]

Yeah, I realized that. I didn't want to start a new post since it was on the exact same subject as this old one. Should I do it differently in the future? And that's very curious about the pictures, they were working perfectly when I uploaded them; I double checked my post after I was done. Dropbox must have variable storage URLs. I'll see if I can reupload them to Flickr or Photobucket and repost the links. Sorry guys!

[CarsonReidDavis]

So it turns out the pictures work perfectly. Just so long as you are logged into my personal Dropbox account while you are browsing the forum, lol.

[fgarci03]

So it turns out the pictures work perfectly. Just so long as you are logged into my personal Dropbox account while you are browsing the forum, lol.

I had the same issue before. You need to put the pictures in the Public folder and get the link from there. And they'll work fine

[CarsonReidDavis]

It won't let me edit my original post, so here is attempt #2 at uploading these pictures. This time I used Flickr, and logged out to check, so hopefully it works.