How does Multipick work?

[Chucklz]

I have some vintage tubes if you two would like. My favorite "geek" article in the world is from a 1923 issue of QST magazine (I own a copy). It describes a teenager/ham operator who made his own vacuum tubes. Now thats hard core.

[Romstar]

Now that is going beyond anything that I feel up to doing. Sure it can be done, but I'll be darned if I want to do it.

Romstar

[toomush2drink]

Ok i can see the concern regarding the gun and wear in the lock but if you are unable to pick the lock any other way, i would rather risk a little wear over using a snapper, drill or core puller etc. It is a commercial product designed to do a commercial job hence the price but boy if i could afford one i would get one especially after my tussle with a chubb conquest padlock which had to be introduced to my angle grinder.

[nobby]

eh? what's going on here? thought we were into locks! please ladies! enuff quantum physics! seems to me if ya wanna gismo that buggers up a lock then get an electric pick or a good 18v cordless drill with a tungsten bit for the security pins....if ya don't then learn to pick locks!!!!!!

[Chucklz]

We are just sharing ideas. Sometimes the best ideas end up coming from the least likely places. And I simply fail to see where the Quantum was discussed. Now, a set of locks that were entangled.... that would be fun.

[Romstar]

eh? what's going on here? thought we were into locks! please ladies! enuff quantum physics! seems to me if ya wanna gismo that buggers up a lock then get an electric pick or a good 18v cordless drill with a tungsten bit for the security pins....if ya don't then learn to pick locks!!!!!!

Telling me to learn to pick locks, is sort of like telling a fish to learn how to swim.

Besides I think you missed the entire point. The multipick, although it does work is a destructive device by virture of the way it functions. While that damage may not be readily apparent, it is there nonetheless.

Further, our discussion of the internals of the control module were such as to show that the device is easily and readily constructed for much less than they are charging, and can be installed in a pick gun similar to the SouthOrd gun.

Romstar

[drv]

Although I must agree that the Multipick is quite expensive, you should realize the folowing :

It's a Swiss hand-made device with a finishing that's unseen in
other devices. You really should have held one in your hands to
understand what I mean. Tolerances and deviations are almost ZERO.

It has a seperate (huge and heavy) battery pack delivering 24 Volts.
The electric motor running it, is a powerfull 60 Watt type. (Lifetime guarantee).
The speed of the device is about 44.000 swivels/minute (!!)
End of the needle swerves less then 1 millimeter.

This leaves any competitors far behind ...
Definately including the Wendt pick ( http://www.zieh-fix.de ) which
we own as well. No comparision at all to the superior multipick.

We use our multipick almost on a daily basis in lockout situations,
with an efficiency rate no other device can deliver, by far.
(I estimate 90% of all locks we encountered).

It takes a lot of training to master the technique, but it really opens
any lock - (and I mean highest security locks, like EVVA, DOM,
Zeiss-Ikon, Vachette and alike) - within a fraction of a second.
So I can't imagine the device doing any damage to a lock, when
in the hands of an experienced operator.

And please mind : Mosts posts in this thread seem to be misfired,
as they are not discussing the multipick device, but an accessory called
the "multipick-control". This unit is sold seperately and allows to
control the frequency of the multipick. The reason for this unit to
be quite expensive is the fact that it replaces the battery pack
of the multipick, by itself.
So it is a computerized battery pack (Li-ION), with variable frequency settings. Lots of options, including storage of user programmable settings.

Bear in mind also that it's quite hard to run a 60W / 24V motor through a 555 I.C. as I saw mentioned before.

[MrB]

Off topic, but: Chucklz is a Pratchett fan?

(If not, sorry, I boobed.)

[okasional]

With all due respect, drv, I've seen pics of the Multipick, and I can hardly believe it's possible for the motor in a relatively small hand held device (that can't be much larger than 40mm in diameter) can be rated 60 watts. Is that something you know, or something you were told?

You are correct about the 555 timer chip. It couldn't even control a 1 watt motor directly. But I think there may be some confusion as to how Multipick obtains different speeds. If you look at the old video clip it sounds like the motor is just being pulsed on and off, so that each time it coasts down it goes through a range of slower speeds. That may be what prompted romstar originally to suggest using a simple timer, although the same effect can be achieved by just pressing the switch repeatedly. Such a timer could use a 555, but needs a power driver transistor to handle motor current.

But obviously it is unlikely anyone would use a microcomputer only to accomplish such a simple timing task. Can you confirm that the microcomputer in the external Multipick control actually just varies the voltage to the motor in various programmed patterns to obtain the different "frequencies" as they call them, and that your reference to "variable frequency settings" is really variable speed settings?

romstar said "the Multipick . . . is a destructive device by virtue of the way it functions." There's a $100,000 bonus for anyone with first hand knowledge by virtue of having seen the insides of one, who can explain this and tell me exactly how the Multipick drive mechanism works. I suspect it's similar to the SouthOrd, with an eccentric cam that drives the pick one way, and a spring that returns it the other way. But does anybody know for sure? Specifically, is the pick driven both up and down by the motor, as an electric toothbrush, without relying on a spring?

[toomush2drink]

If it works why question the ins and outs of it and in such a"off" sort of way. Curiosity is a great thing but sometimes how we pursue this can be done with different approaches.

[PickPick]

Ever used a Dremel? That's a 125W and it ain't really bigger than the multipick.
I don't know which video you're referring to, but pulsing the pick on and off is the usual way to use an electric pick gun, at least that's what I was taught and what works for me. But that would have been the multipick without the controller. Of which I'm pretty sure that it varies the voltage because before the box was developed, they sold a potentiometer to put between the pick and the battery pack.
What the controller accomplishes that a poti couldn't is frequency programms like continously going from a low frequency to a high frequency, wobbling between certain frequencies and most important saving your settings once you've found a certain frequency which works good for a certain lock model. And you don't need a third hand anymore to hold the pick, the tension wrench and the poti at the same time.

As for it being called a destructive device, you don't need to know the internals for that one. Every electric pick gun is heavy on a lock. Pin tips are worn down, it puts lots of stress on the springs, the keyway is damaged, metal shavings end up in all the wrong places. Since the MP is just an advanced electric pick gun with better control and far more power, it's basically the same, just more pronounced. Believe me, I've seen the reports from forensic examinations of multipicked locks.

The motor moves the needle up and down, a spring would wear out to soon. The way it feels it's an eccenter driven by a voltage-controlled motor. But I've met B. Jacobi who runs Multipick and I'm friends with the guy who developed the control box. Are you still sure about the $100,000?

[okasional]

drv -- thanks for the speedy reply, the picture, and the useful comments. Glad you weren't offended by my question, as TooMush was. And I don't blame you, I wouldn't take it apart either if I owned one. Sounds like it's motor driven for sure.

PickPick -- Good point about the Dremel. I have two of them, and neither is marked with wattage (nor is the owners manual), although they are marked "1.15A." I measured both with my watt meter and they were 55 to 65 watts, pretty much at any speed. But that motor is 4 inches long x 2" across the brush holders, and must be air cooled. It is possible the Multipick motor is rated 60 watts on an "intermittent duty" basis. That would be fair and honest for this type application.

However, I've learned it's futile to argue about electric motor power. For example, 1 HP is equivalent to 746 watts, and a typical 1 HP electric motor draws 13 to 19 amps at 115VAC. Yet I can plug my Black & Decker electric lawnmower into any 20 amp wall outlet, even though the motor is marked conspicuously "*4 HP". If you look for the fine print explaining the asterisk it says "Gas equivalent at peak torque", whatever the heck that means. Sears sells an air compressor that runs on ordinary 115 VAC/15 amps that they call "6 HP maximum developed".

But PickPick, I'm not ready to mail the $100,000 check quite yet. I think you are only guessing about what's inside because you said "the way it feels". Do you presently own one of these bad boys? Also, springs are used in many devices where the life is measured in the hundreds of millions of cycles. Every SouthOrd has a return spring, and I haven't seen any postings from anyone with a worn out spring.

The connection between destructiveness and the internals is as follows. The spring in a SouthOrd (and some other brands) provides some "give" in one direction if the pick strikes an immoveable object, such as a keyway ward. If the Multipick is hard drive in both directions then the pick will just hammer anything that tries to restrict its movement. I'm trying to determine if it's (at least partly) because of that the Multipick deserves a reputation for being a little more destructive than other brands. Maybe its just that it has far more power, as you suggested.

[PickPick]

Believe me, if you ran Southord or HPC or Wendt or MSC or Köster or any other electric pick gun with that much power you would get the same results. The damage the normal electric pick guns do to the lock is exactly the same, just not as heavy. Most of the destructiveness isn't caused by hitting immovable parts (straightening out paracentric keyways is one popular use of e-picks btw) but it's caused on the springs and the pins. If the wards are somehwat smoother you don't have a problem but if a pin with an pointed tip is rounded off suddenly the key may not work anymore. Broken springs are even worse. The problem is simply that you use a steel needle to hit brass pins. You can kick out the brass end plugs in the pin holes of a padlock using just a normal Lockaid gun.

I say "the way it feels" because, as you've observed correctly I don't own one. For a normal hobbyist this thing is a very expensive way to make noise and nothing more, there's no fun or excitement involved in using it. But I've used one before and I've visited Multipick before and tried one, without power the needle doesn't really move but you can feel the eccenter spinning in the back if you use more force to move the needle.

Sure springs are used in a lot of devices but a spring that would act fast enough and handle the peak power of the Multipick would be too big for this case. As for the SO, even compared to other electric pick guns it's a weakling, so it's no surprise they get away with it.

And about the Dremel wattage, it's written on the side of my unit, together will some other technical data. I've seen such tech lables on most power-tools I use, are you sure it's not there?

[Romstar]

Well, I'm a little late but.....

The 555 timer isn't supposed to be used to control the power directly to the motor I thought that would be known.

Wattage isn't really the issue anyway, the main issue is amperage. Wattage is best expressed in this application as wasted heat. Since we are using a pulsing charge circuit to drive the motor, the 555 is actually out of the direct path of the motor and it's current draw.

Our purpose in using the 555, or 556 timers is to provide a varying pulse to the charge circuit, thus changing the operation of the motor in relation to the settings for the timer.

Diodes are your friends. Unless you wish to get more inventive and use a transistor.

Happy hacking.
Romstar

[MrB]

Also, there have been a few mentions of varying the voltage to vary the speed of the motor. In fact, varying the voltage is not a good way to vary the speed of a DC motor. You get too much loss of torque at low speeds. The usual speed control circuit uses pulse width modulation (PWM). This turns the current on and off in varying proportions, but always keeps full voltage.

A 555 timer would be a way to generate the required PWM signal, but perhaps overkill for simple applications. In any event, you would have high power transistors to switch the output current, and definitely a diode for back emf protection as Romstar mentioned.