New lever pick idea

[Peaky]

I am playing around with the idea of having 5 wires running down a tube which has a lip on the end for turning the curtain and a handle the opposite end for tensioning,

The 5 wires are bent a little like CB's wire on his curtain picks, at the opposite end the wires are bent 90',

You can move the wires in and out independantly so it is universal spacing,

The problem i have is that the wires i have used are a little thick so getting them all in the lock side by side is proving a bit tight,

I beleive that with the right dimensions it could all fit in the lock and the opposite end would have ratchet wheels that lift the wires (rotate) at certain points so all it would need is paper work that transposed all the differant lever heights of differant locks to the numbers on the dials,

You would id the lock, set the spacings on the wires correctly you would then know what each mark on the dials (on the wire ends) is equivilent to whether it be 2 marks for a number 1 lever etc, knowing 2 of the levers are allways the same would bring the lever count effectivly down to 4, it would then just be the case of trying the lever combinations one by one along with the feel on the wires to open the lock,

Anyone know of any commercial equivilants to this or can anyone give any extra ideas for me to consider,

I know you can get decoders and pin and cams but they are lock specific and quite expensive, this method would do all locks with the 2 tools (L+R), give you a set of cutting depths for a new key and can be used and maintainted/repaired by driller killers that want to pick locks instead of drilling them.

[Romstar]

Ya know, people have to learn to stay out of my head.

Seriously though, you are indeed onto something, and I think you should keep working on it.

I was working on a similar idea after talking with Pinky a lot. However, because I lack access to a wide variety of locks it hasn't gone too far yet.

Romstar

[Peaky]

Im sorry for nicking your ideas, maybe we can conpare notes,

I need to get over the bulkiness first but my mind is fully on this problem (for now) and maybe the answer is staring straight back at me.

If i can help you in your quest anyway i will do.

[toomush2drink]

Just one thought but this is what a pin and cam does already. I think you would need a lot of charts for the lever heights and the corresponding lift on the wires. I see here your coming from though with the idea but by using wires as lifters you will surely run into the same problems as using a curtain pick and thats overcoming the antipick notches.
keep up the ideas and development though because you might actually stumble across another idea or 2 along the way as a by product.

[captainsawdust]

I look forward to seeing it

[Romstar]

You haven't nicked my idea Peaky. It was something I was playing with, but I am restricted in just how much I can develop it because of where I am. Lever locks aren't the most common things in Canada.

If I think of something really unique, I will let you know about it. You'd have a much better chance of making it work than I. Keep up the good work.

Romstar

[dry132]

you might consider trying some of the smaller "feeler gauges" that exist. They're plenty thin to fit 5 into a keyway, and stiff enough for light picks. I've thought of doing what I think you're talking about too, with a rivet and screw-dials to adjust the height of each lifter. It would take some pretty decent engineering to get a linear output rise though, and thus I haven't tried it yet.

[Peaky]

Toomush, A pin and cam is lock specific, this tool should fit all, yes a few charts would be needed but dont forget how simular some locks are to each other so it would just be a case of having a heading that covers the lock and any simular ones so pehaps 1-2 sides of A4 or a PDA would sort this problem out, Anti pick notches will be the painful part but imagine if you have a graded scale on the wires, you can find the maximum and minimum lift of that lever then go for halfway, after all a curtain pick is very good and can easily get over anti pick notches in practiced hands,

Captain, as soon as i can get it to work (or even get all the wires in the lock so they can efficentally lift the levers) full drawings and pics will be put up so anyone can make it, until then if i dont get much further now it will be chucked in the corner with the auto dialler until i get new and fresh ideas on it.

dry132, Unfortunatley i think you are perhaps getting mixed up with a cylinder lock (pins) these are lever locks and you would be luccky to get a feeler gauge to lift a lever even if doubled up, also the wires need to be that, round wires (you can use other shapes but dont forget there are 5 needing to move together in there), they need to go in to the lock and rotate on to the levers, then you rotate further which lifts the chosen lever up and then you find the gate, once the lever is binding on the gate you go for the next lever that binds and so on. Your idea used on a cylinder lock really would be an engineering headache

[EvoRed]

I believe Safeventures have a universal pin and cam, albeit expensive and restricted, with various head attachments for various locks, which sounds like your idea.

When you come across a different lock you generally just need to change the head as this is basically all that's different for various pin and cams anyway...

I believe a universal p&c may have been looked into of late by others for a relatively cheaper and less restricted solution...

[Peaky]

Yes you can get a universal pin and cam and some others were/are going to make one as well but the advantage of this idea is that although not a pin and cam it would be simpler and have a higher 100% success rate depending on skill, and a basic one could be made by anyone with a dremel and a vice,

I have now tried some smaller wire and can get 3 wires to work comfortably and 2 wires in there but not interacting with the others very well, i think i need to bend the wires differantly,

[Rick-the-Pick]

Great idea Peaky,
That rachet system sounds interesting to! I'd love to see that?
What's needed is a flexible wire 0.25 thick & very very strong!
When you find some please let me know the supplier

[macaba]

Metal Wire is good for torstional forces (twisting), but not so good for bending forces. So perhaps you should have metal wire running down the shaft and then securely glue something like carbon rod onto the end to lift the levers, carbon rod sure as hell resists bending. Only, is 'securely glueing' enough?

[Peaky]

Its the diameter of wire needed to be strong enough to move the levers that is the problem, 1.5mm is the norm and getting 5 off them down a 4.5mm or 5.5mm keyhole and still all touch the levers evenly to be able to lift them on centre is the hold up.

If flexible rods are needed a spring goes a long way and also a spring can be turned through a threaded hole to make a flexible threaded rod, i am talking springs that are a couple of inches long at least not a pen spring.

[Rick-the-Pick]

I dont know what lock's you're working on there Peak's,
5.5mm keyhole is quite large and can easily accomodate two wires!
Most of my picks are 4mm o/d with 0.5 wall down to 3mm o/d with 0.5 wall! That's difficult to make them accomodate anything other than a cam system!
For your design you would indeed need 0.25mm spring loaded wire, which i think is near impossible to aquire! I have designed a similar pick, bit like the sputnik to work on mortice type lever locks, they open quite quick but near impossible to take a reading for the code! Wire keeps snaping so the design is on the shelf until i find some correct gauge wire!
I have a pin and cam where once you have taken a reading the pick will open the lock, the pins lift approx 2mm but again, it's brilliant for fast entry but again, difficult to take a code! but it can take multiple bit's for different locks!
Once i get my new workshop and invest in a new lathe and mill i'll perfect it and give it to Pinky as a gift, just to tease you lot!
Other than that peakes, keep trying, you need to keep designing these tool's and one day a good one will come to you!

[Peaky]

I also have a universal pin and cam that is almost completed,

This 5 wires idea was purley as a cheaper way for non believers to get the point,

As you have sugested in a round about sort of way, the problem is in the fact that you do need 1.4mm-1.6mm wire and that you need to get 5 of them in to a tube which will fit in the keyway, now this is not the hard part that is saved for the fact all 5 wires must be able to lift the levers from the same axis and not one which is higher or lower than the wire thickness of the wire before it in the tube.

I wasnt useing tube sizes for my idea as i didnt think anyone would understand it so i used OD sizes instead, a 4.5mm keyway is a 7G lock and a 5.5mm keyway is a 5G lock i would imagine the tube sizes to be around 4.0mm and 3.5mm respectively.