Tubular Lock Snap/ Gun

[Orange_Crusader]

I made a few snap guns over the weekend, and was thinking about designing and making a tubular lock pick, so, naturally (at least with my thoughts) they merged into one idea, a tubular snap pick.

For now, I'd like to know if this would be possible. I know it wouldn't be as practical as a regular tubular pick, but I'm curious all the same.

The idea is to have a regular tubular pick handle and shaft, with the pins being replaced by a second cylinder, which would be spring loaded, possibly with a trigger type mechanism. On the second cylinder, which would fit with a very small gap over the inner one, ther would be an adjustable L-shaped piece of metal, about 1-2mm wide, as the strike face. It would be flat all the way around, to insure that it hits the pins at the same time, with the same force. This L-shaped bit would be adjustable (for the depth of the pins, or the amount of travel that is desired for the strike face to the pins), possibly by 2 simple counteracting nuts to hold it in place.

A trigger mechanism could be built in, so make it more user friendly. Also, an electric version can be made.

The same torque nub would be used, with no modification.

I know it's a bit impractical, but I'd like to know how successful it would be. I'll draw a diagram (PS, not paint) to better explain this. Also, it would be a universally usable tubular pick, since it would be able to pick 7 or 8 pin locks indifferently, and fairly quickly (with the electric version. Any thoughts, suggestions, comments, etc. are appreciated.

[stick]

Definitely worth a shot, although I feel it probably won't be as succesful as you hope. Prove me wrong.

[vector40]

How about a tubular bump key?

[digital_blue]

How about a tubular bump key?

As I read the OP I was thinking the same thought. You beat me to it. Anybody here tried cutting a regular tubular key to max depths? Any suggestions on how one might to that without an actual key cutter?

db

[Mad Mick]

I was initially skeptical about this idea, then had a brainpain...if a tubular blank was cut to the deepest cuts and attached to an adjustable automatic centrepunch (I have one o these, but I'm not going to bugger it up as I use it often), this could provide the bump force...and a tension tool attached to the blank could be used to apply the tension after the bump...

Sheeeit!, did I say that out loud?

[matteo687]

Correct me if I have it wrong, but the main reason a bumpkey works is because of the way the key is ground on the tip and shoulder. The extra space provides the the necessary room for the key to reciprocate back and forth, and make the pins dance as they strike the peaks between the cuts.

This would not be the same action with a tubular bumpkey right? Plus, you could damage the lock and damage the pins alot easier because you are striking the key directly into the pins (versus the action applied on a regular lock, the key is struck and the force is applied laterally across the bottom of the pins).

However, maybe something made of a softer material that is the same shape as a tubular key (cut to 999)... something you vibrate very rapidly while applying torsion to turn the lock.. hmmm

MD

[vector40]

Well, you could create the extra space by just cutting the key a bit further than the bottom (the equivalent of a "10" cut, for instance), assuming it will actually be stopped in front by the rim or the tab.

You're right about potential damage, though. It would bear experimentation. And of course you'd have to repeat several times to turn it fully.

[Peaky]

I have raked one before now when i was trying the bic trick, i cut the pen like a hole saw, took the shapness off them and used it like i was lighting a fire with a stick except only going one way (opposite to cutting it if it was a hole saw) ! it moved 2 positions then locked up and had to be picked back.

Personally i think this idea could work with the right amount of prototyping,

I am sorry but i cant 100% visulise the strike process on your original description but as a quick thought how about a plain piece of tube stock or even a blank key, attached to an electric pick gun,
you could have a 5 mm hole in the side to place a tension wrench or even leaving the stump on a key and turning the key (blank) may give you adequate tenion although a separate wrench would be adviseable.

This way you can adjust the tension, adjust the vibration frequency and have no other moving parts in the pick, simple to make and experiment, you could cut off the bic pen and use that in a pick gun if an experiment needs to be done but i think the plastic would hollow out some of the important vibration frequencys but worth a try.

To go even farther you could get some round stock, bore one end to house a small electric motor with a offset weight on the pinion, the other end of this would be machined down to the lock dimensions and it would have the hole to insert the wrench,

You could make a housing on top of that to house a batt or just use a normal batt holder.

This project definatley has legs as far as im concerned and i will be keeping an eye on the thread.

Nice idea.

[Jimmie]

I never tried by myself but M Tobias said in one of his last articles he has bump opened some tubular locks making the cuts wider (and of course cut on the deepest cut)

the problem is you need to bump the key many times to have the lock opened ... and if you have 2 or 3 turns ... it makes the job rather boring

if you are lucky enough to have the lock picked betwwen two pin chambers you can fix the pins with some stuff like for ex cotton thread or dental floss ...

you can also decode the lock when it is opened between two pin chambers

my two cents

Jimmy

[Peaky]

I could be wrong but i dont see how you can bump a tubular lock, i apprechiate it possably has been done but i can not work out how,

It is in my understanding that a bump key is basically the same as using a pick gun or raking a lock in that the pins are bounced until they meet the shear line all at once and the lock can then be turned,

In a cylinder lock this is just simply a blank key cut to all the same heights with a little taken off the shoulder for movement, each pin can be lifted a certain amount and at the same time as its neibouring pins,

This leads me to the tubular lock, the key has a shoulder to be pushed against, this in turn sets the pins at the correct height,

By this explanation a bump key for a tubular lock would not set any high pins (or is that low?) unless the key had the deepest cuts in it, if that was so how do you set the pins that are lower? they are in thin air, as if there was no key in the lock!

You may get around it by cutting the cuts wider but they will need to be a little over twice the pin diameter so that the key can be turned until the pins are off the key cuts postion, i dont think there is enough room on a key to do this and if you think about it logically waht you are doing is actually inserting a plain piece of tube that isnt touching any pins,

The only way i can think of to use a bump key style would be to cut a blank off-set so that when the key is inserted all the pins are to one side of the cuts on the key, you would also need to put the tension wrench hole in the key and also you will need to remove the lock turning pip- on the key,
you may then be able to put the key in as a blank, put on a little tension with a separate wrench and then carefully turn the key until the pins start springing back into the key,
This is almost (actually it is) an overlifting method and results may be gained or may not, afterall its only somthing ive just thought of whilst typing the start of this reply.

Jimmie, i am not for one second calling you a liar or saying you are wrong, its just that i can not work it out how they can be bumped as in key in, smack with mallet with tension and lock opens.
I have not read the bump paper yet so perhaps i should (its been printed out for ages).

[Peaky]

Here's an idea;

Get a battery drill/driver which has a torque adjuster on,
Get a fitting for it so you can fit a 1/4" drive socket on the end,
Find a socket of the type which has 2 hex's in the centre instead of the normal one,
They look like a star bit but all it is, is they allow you twice as many chances of getting the socket on a bolt,
Find one which fits the sizes of a tubular lock closely,
With a dremel or such like grind off all the 'points' on the inside of the socket EXCEPT one, this will be the tensioner,

Play with your dremel until the socket fits in the lock and the single 'point' fits the tension lug,
If you need to take the outside dia down you can put the socket via the adapter in to the drill and whilst the dremel is clamped down run the drill and touch the socket on the grinding wheel, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU RUN THE SOCKET IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION THE GRINDING WHEEL IS RUNNING, failiure to do so i.e you run them both the same way, then you will destroy one or both machines and could hurt yourself in the process, if you are not confident then dont do it just file it,

Now with the torque adjuster in its softest position place the socket in the lock and run the drill on its fastest speed,
This may well be enough to open the lock, you can bring the socket (now a pick) in and out of the lock slightly or you could try differant torques although no's 1or2 of the softest settings will be the limit before you destroy the pick or lock depending on the strength of your drill/driver,

I have not tested this idea as that is all it is, i am a bit busy with other projects at the moment but i did a simular thing a while ago useing a saw blade on a cylinder lock, it worked for cheap locks with no security pins but wouldnt touch anything else, a tubular lock shouldnt be a problem.

You may have to grind down a portion of the outer dia on the socket to simulate no 3 cuts or somthing to give a bit more movement but i wouldnt go any deeper.

Discuss,

[matteo687]

Lots of food there Peaky,

I'm with ya on the concept of bumping not applying to the tubular lock. The physics just seem wrong.

But the drill and socket vibrational picker thingy sounds interesting! I like the idea in general, but what i don't agree with is the huge amount of torsion applied with the squeeze of my trigger finger. Maybe a similar concept, but with a... oh I know! a modified Sonicare toothbrush! Seriously, you can use the vibration but you would manually rotate it to apply the torsion as you like.

Note to self: go and ask ex-wife if I can have her sonicare toothbrush!

MD

[Peaky]

You could always hold the drill chuck to take some of the turning force out of there,

Also on reading your post (sorry i only skipped through the thread) i realise you had pretty much already come up with what i said before i stuck my penny worth in , only i threw in a few ideas of how to go about it,

I think weve been through the sonicare thing before in the past but cant remember the outcome (wasnt with a tubular lock) i dont think there is enough strength in them to move anything,

On a simular but way off topic note,

I have been keeping it secret, but i have a new idea for a power source im sure hasnt been tapped before in this buisness and was experimenting with it on various home made pick guns for around 3 months on and off,

Although a lockie and have all the proper bought tools i do like the challenge of designing picks that can be made by people with limited (workshop) skills or resorces, so this was the drive behind my new pickgun idea

Just to thorw it in here and let the cat out of the bag (please give me the credit for the idea in future threads if it takes off) the power source does not run out, it is light, very cheap to buy and plentiful, very easily worked with and small enough to fit in any home made pick gun or projects as we are talking about here,

Before i big it up too much its a spring !!!
Now i know what you are thinking but with the associated mechanics a pick gun like an electric one can be made but will run like clockwork (pun intended but quite poor, sorry) the best items ive found to butcher ahem sorry i meant modify, are the little wind up plastic bath toys sold on markets, pull off the flippers, head etc and you are left with a wind up gerbox that has an output shaft of which an off set weight can be attached, i was heavily into that project when the trouble on site kicked off and i chose to not participate any longer so i shelved the idea,
if im not here i cant tell you all can i,
anyway this thread interested me and so i have come back and told you here, you may think its a stupid idea but research it and you will find out it is a very feasible way of running a pick gun effectively, there is a lot of power in those wind up toys.

You can all go and do your own experiments now.Have fun.

[Orange_Crusader]

That definetly sounds like a cool idea, Peaky. The spring would have to be pretty strong (the way they're typically geared leaves them with little torque), but it would indeed make an awesome power source for these.

Since I don't own a tubular lock myself (and I'm not about to go out and try a coke machine), I don't know how strong the typical pin springas are, or how much tension is needed.

I think a using a drill for this, at least for the tension portion, would be overkill. Unless it's a hammer drill, it can't exactly bump the pins (unless it has a ridged surface, which isn't a bad idea) without causing unneccesary damage to the lock.

I personally quite like the spring idea, I'll see if I can think of a decent way of transfering the rotational movement into back-and-forth movement with as much torque as possible, or at least as much as needed.

I'll start working on a diagram today, if I have time, to better display mt idea.

A slightly wave-shaped striking face doesn't seems like half bad idea: it lets the plug rotate, and, if it's also rotating, strikes the pins at different points, transferring less or more energy, so there's more of a shance of openeing the lock.

For practical reasons, a manual version of this is quickly being sent to the back burner, since it would take a lot of "snaps" to pick the lock, which an electric can do in seconds.

Tension is a whole new problem now, with only a single tube. It might have to be implemented by a regular tension tool, or something built into the tool, that goes ahead of the striking face and inner tube, and into the tension slot.

[pip]

what about....

mating a bic pen
( or some kind of soft tubular plastic that will fit the diameter )
to an electric toothbrush

i believe the bic pen worked on the kryponite lock
because it molded itself into the pins...
am i wrong ?

just have to find a way how to apply tension...