Cam on wrong side?

[ched999uk]

Sorry if this is a really stupid question. I bought 2 keyed alike euro cylinders with turnbuckles and fitted them no problem. They work fine apart from 1 major problem. When leaving I raise the handle and release it and then turn the key. About 1 time in 10 even though I have raised the handle and turned the key through 360 degrees the door can be opened!!!!!
On examining the original euro cylinders, which I have refitted and always lock correctly, I can see the cam on the new turnbuckle euro cylinders is on the opposite side in the locked position.
Hope the above images shows what I mean.

Cam on turnbuckle is against worktop, original cylinders can is pointing away from worktop.

Anyway is there any way to move the cam round by about 30 degrees or is my door mechanism broken?

Thanks for any help you can give.

[adambigballs]

I fit these turn buckle barrels quite often where I work and have come across this problem myself. Do you have to spin the key through two full rotations before it locks? I'm not a lockie but a joiner so I could be wrong but i have found that if you lock it first time with the thumb turn ( I usually do it with the door still open) it sets the cam right for the key to require just one 360 turn. Remember I'm not really 100 per cent on this but it works for me and can't hurt to give it a try

[ched999uk]

I fit these turn buckle barrels quite often where I work and have come across this problem myself. Do you have to spin the key through two full rotations before it locks? I'm not a lockie but a joiner so I could be wrong but i have found that if you lock it first time with the thumb turn ( I usually do it with the door still open) it sets the cam right for the key to require just one 360 turn. Remember I'm not really 100 per cent on this but it works for me and can't hurt to give it a try

Cheers for the reply. On the odd occasion that it doesn't lock I can turn it 2 rotations and it would lock. I think the main problem is that it only fails to lock on 1 rotation some of the time. Thinking of it tonight when I was measuring the cylinder it did require 2 turns to lock it. But it does not lock randomly.

I have measured the cam and it's within the range of dimensions of the working cylinders. The only thing I can find different on the turnbuckle is the cam is on the other side when the key is extracted.

Just annoying trying to work out if the turnbuckles I bought are faulty or I need ones with the cam on the other side?

Cheers

[ched999uk]

After reading lots of posts on here I think I have found the problem! I believe that some of the keys have been cut badly and are a fraction short! So if they are not pushed into the lock firmly the cam is not operated by the key as it is still connected to the turnbuckle.

Looking at 2 of the 5 keys I have with me 1 has definitely been cut shorter. One has no brass showing on the end it is the chrome plating, the other which has caused the door not to lock on occasions, has brass showing and appears to be about 0.5mm shorter from the key shoulder to the tip.

I can't test my theory till tomorrow but does anyone think a short key might give problems with a turnbuckle euro cylinder?

Thanks for this great forum it has (I hope) helped me solve a confusing problem but also renewed my interest in locks.

Thanks.

[billdeserthills]

I'm sure you are correct, I have often seen the short key problem occur and I have to caution most users of profile locks that they need to press their key into the lock firmly while turning it, in order to lock or unlock this type lock

[billdeserthills]

One other thing that has cause trouble is on doors with an upper or lower vertical rod is if there is dirt or debris in the upper or lower strike holes the locking rods will many times not throw out far enough for the mechanism to lock properly. I always caution folks with this type of locking system to Always try the handle after locking it, just to be sure it is really locked.

[ched999uk]

Cheers billdeserthrills. The reason we discovered the door was not always locking was by trying the handle. The problem is the property is going to be a rented out so it will be tenants who are locking it!
I believe it to be just a problem with short keys as the same problem exists on both front door and back doors. Both cylinders were purchased keyed alike.
I had checked the rolllers and hooks for any signs of debris or witness marks but all working correctly. I even had a double glazing bloke quote for a new multi lock mechanism but he wasn't confident it would cure the problem.

So thanks to the forum I hope I have a solution (correct length keys).

Thanks.

[ched999uk]

I was wrong!!! The short key or the longer key makes no difference, they both fail to lock to door on the odd occasion.
I unlocked the door today, lifted handle, went in house and did not turn the turnbuckle, but raised the handle. I lowered the handle to open the door, walked outside raised the handle and turned the key. It did not lock after 360 degree rotation and I heard a small ping, I rotated a further 360 degrees and it was locked securely.

I am suspecting an issue with the cam mechanism. Does anyone have an exploded image of a turnbuckle type euro cylinder so I can try and understand how the key engages the cam?

Thanks for any help you can give.

[billdeserthills]

I find if you turn the key until it stops, then turn it back until it will come out of the lock it always works. Sometimes it is one turn & sometimes two, as you have said,
I think the placement of the cam, from wherever the inner side left it will determine the timing, or how many turns it will take. I have noticed some euro type locks
work this way, even when they are not broken. I just tell my clients to turn the key until it stops and then turn back until it will come out of the keyhole.
I did have a Hoppe multi-point lock the other day that will unlock itself, if you turn the key too far, but it is definately broken inside

[mhole]

This often happens with thumb turn cylinders. The reason is the keyed half is connected to the thumb turn by a sprung clutch mechanism. If the internal thumb turn was returned exactly to the original position each time, then the clutch would engage when the key was inserted, and one turn would lock the door. However, if the turn is slightly off, a single rotation engages the clutch, and a second turn is needed to lock the mechanism.

Usually you can easily feel the difference when you're actually locking something, b but if in doubt try turning twice everytime to be sure.

[ched999uk]

Thanks very much. It is starting to become clear that turnbuckles can have this issue. As it's a rental property I can't give the tenants 'special' instructions on how to turn the key till it wont turn then back a little to remove it or to check the handle wont move after locked every time.

So thanks for the advice. I am going to go back to more normal key on each side locks.

Thanks.