A question of quality

[SteveW]

I know this subject has been discussed several times befor, so i am sorry if i am running over old ground, but i have several questions about cylinders.( please feel free to tell me off )

Firstly which brands of cylinders are currently up to the BS36212004 standard, is it ok to assume that a cylinder with six pins and the required antipicking pins is of the required standerd or is there more to it than that?

I have also noticed that some lockies stock different quality cylinders, offering a bird for free (i personaly think this is not in the customers interest, and your cuting your own profit margins), or to pay for a higher quality cylinder. Is this normal practice, or is it better to ofer only good quality?

My final question is again over quality i know that makes such as the Yale X5, union, ERA, Gege, ASSA etc. are all good quality products, but what of the lesser known brands such as Azbe, Esla, and Cisa etc, are they any good?

I rearly just want to hear all your thoughts on cylinder quality

Ps. I know Bird cylinders are bad, ive got a couple ive picked up and they fall open if you give them a dirty look

[panalman]

I know this subject has been discussed several times befor, so i am sorry if i am running over old ground, but i have several questions about cylinders.( please feel free to tell me off )

Firstly which brands of cylinders are currently up to the BS36212004 standard, is it ok to assume that a cylinder with six pins and the required antipicking pins is of the required standerd or is there more to it than that?

I have also noticed that some lockies stock different quality cylinders, offering a bird for free (i personaly think this is not in the customers interest, and your cuting your own profit margins), or to pay for a higher quality cylinder. Is this normal practice, or is it better to ofer only good quality?

My final question is again over quality i know that makes such as the Yale X5, union, ERA, Gege, ASSA etc. are all good quality products, but what of the lesser known brands such as Azbe, Esla, and Cisa etc, are they any good?

I rearly just want to hear all your thoughts on cylinder quality

Ps. I know Bird cylinders are bad, ive got a couple ive picked up and they fall open if you give them a dirty look

All I can say is the yale X5 is a very easy opening as for the rest I canot quote at the moment as i have not got around to them but I will in time.

[pinky]

the cylinder alone does not conform to bs3621.

some cisa cylinders are pigs as are many cheap makes, i wont fit a bird even for free, if i give a cylinder away free its generaly an assec as a budget but good quality brand, i wouldnt fit bird to a budgie cage.

[SteveW]

So the cylinder and the lock case must both conform to the BS3621 standerd?

[pinky]

generaly the escutcheon too, the latch or deadlock case too.

[SteveW]

So the lock itself must comply to the current BS3621, so 20mm throw etc,
Now you mention it that makes complete sence

My other point in this thread was the quality of cylinders. For someone fairly new to the trade the no. of different cylinders available on the market can be quite confusing. To add to this many UPVC doors are fitted with cheap imported cylinders from who knows where, which further add to the problem.

I was considering stocking Union and Assa cylinders, would this be a good way to go?

[pinky]

i would always advise a varied stock of cylinders, i personaly stock the following makes;

Budget range

Assec

Mid Range

Union , Yale , corbin and iseo R6

Top range

Union Keyso , Iseo R11 and GeGe

but i will supply any make and model of lock.

what you stock is up to you, but to remain competetive you must stock a budget range, i can see your point on not doing the customer any favours in fitting a crap lock, but its a sad fact that many customers dont give a toss and will book the locksmith services purely upon price.
So to combat this you must stock a budget range to remain competetive, the secret is still however not to fit crap locks, and stock a quality budget lock such as Assec, which are actualy cheaper than bird anyway and with 3 anti picks in the 5 pin model and a nasty keyway a much better lock than bird or even yale and union 5 pin.

If you want to assist your customer , then advise them of the truth, it makes little difference on cylinder choice and quality to the customers security, there are next to no cases of burglars picking locks, the security is often in the latch or in the lock case, not the cylinder. Far better off educating them into haveing an anti slip latch and an anti drill lock case and letterbox protection, as these are the weaknesses exploited by thiefs, a thief wont even bother trying to pick even a bird, he will kick in door and some slip latches, but none if any pick.

Too much importance is given to cylinder choice by the locksmith today, and not enough consideration is given to the real weakness, the latch, the case, the letterbox and the door panels and door itself.
What is the point in selling a customer a great 6 pin cylinder almost unpickable, and leave a £2 latch on back of door? Whats the point in selling the customer a good cylinder and and anti slip latch, if the door is badly fitted and causes the anti slip defense not to function.

Its like fitting BS3621 locks, why fit a chubb when an assec bs lock has same insurance rating and offers same level of protection, the only people who pick these are the small minority of good locksmiths, again burglars are put off by mortice locks of all types as much harder and noisier to kick in.

Quality is important, but prioritise level of importance, and the picking quality of the cylinder is far less important than other aspects of the doors security, a top notch nightlatch and cheap cylinder is far more secure than an expensive super cylinder fitted to a crap latch.

as to bs cylinder conformaty, a few of the factors now are that the cylinder must be 6 pin, contain at least 4 anti picks and contain anti drill measures.

[SteveW]

Aaah the voice of reson once again

Your right there is no point in fiting a top quality cylinder to a poor lock, and it is in the customers interest to fit a good lock in the first place. Assec are Aldridges own brand i beleive, does anybody know if keyprints WKS Delta range is any good?

Ive found other WKS products to be of good quality, the deadlocks are Wallsall etc. I am curious about the cylinders as i get a great price on them.

[nhughz]

Hi Martin

What letter box protection do you advise ? most people don't seem to like the cages.

[pinky]

wks are far easier to pick than assec, and the thumb turn turning wires work a treat on wks but dont on assec, i find assec to be the best quality of entire budget range, though better than many and an acceptable budget range that will defeat a novice picker, though they surrender instantly to the pick gun.

i too stock wks dead and sash locks as walsall in disguise, a good all round lock, but beatable via curtain pick in under 5 mins and safe ventures decoder in under 2 mins every time.

Letterbox protectors dont need to be cages, angled deflector plates cause enough agro preventing letterbox openings and limit drafts

[Shrub]

A lot of people round my way are sealing their letterboxes up and having a lockable mail box screwed to the wall outside.

[pinky]

i know a few girls who like that too! now that is quality.

[toomush2drink]

I fit stacks of assec stuff as the customers are swung by price. For those that want better i offer chubb mortice locks etc or x5's but as pinky says its the latch that is the weakness.The other nice thing with the assec cylinders is you get 3 keys, customers seem to love this .
Stock the assec mortice locks and you only need to stock one type of key blank as they all use the same apart from the budget 3 levers. If they want better euros i use evva or some of the duffels restricted, it depends how much they want to pay.
Be warned if you offer too much choice the customer can sometimes be put off and you could lose the job, it a bit strange but something ive experienced a couple of times.

[nicholls]

I stock ERA cylinders as a basic and for my big bas***d security freak people them lovely break secure MUL-T-LOCK's, as for the night latches I just carry securit's but usually advise people (who just have a nightlatch for security), to have a sash lock and dead lock fitted.

[SteveW]

Ok firstly thanks alot for all the info, i think i have a good handle on what cylinders to stock etc.

After reading Pinkys post my thoughts have turned to the lock cases. I would assume that the lock cases would have to reach similiar BS3621 standards asdeadlocks , 20mm throw etc.

However after pawing through my catalogues non of my suppliers give any indication as to whether their lockcases are BS standard

Have any euro or oval lockcases passed the BS3621-2004 standerd yet?

Is there a BS standard for lock cases?