Highly accurate competition timing

[Raccoon]

I see videos and competition scores where people open a lock in a split second-- too fast for the person holding the stop-watch to even react. When it boils down to the numbers, I would think an accurate digital solution is needed for this sport.

Here's my idea. It's quite simple really.

A computer/laptop, a cheap microphone, and a small clamping device. Butcher the microphone and solder the element to the clamping device. Clamp the assembly to the lock being picked. (The solder is used to bond the metal to metal, and not to complete any electrical pathway.)

Using any decent recording software, the judge would begin recording and say GO, and end recording when the contestant says OPEN. Simply highlight the waveform from the first audio spike when their pick enters the keyway to the audio spike where the lock clicks open. You'll have an accurate timing down to 1/1000'th of a second.

A second microphone can be used (if the computer supports multiple inputs) to record the audio in the room in case of any dispute about what audio spike represents the start/stop point. Clearly the spike that immediately precedes OPEN would be the end time, so the contestant removing his/her pick or rake from the lock doesn't add extra seconds to their time.

For safes and larger locks, a stethoscope-microphone assembly could also be useful.

Has anyone tried anything like this?

[digital_blue]

Can't say I have. I believe that the accuracy in timing problem is what led another group (don't remember if it was TOOOL or SS/Dev) to require contestants to activate the stopwatch themselves. This way, there is never cause for argument that the time keeper was too slow.

We've never worried all that much about it for the LSI tests, but in a larger competition it makes sense that it would be much more important. I think your idea is good, but probably more involved than would be practical for regular use at meetings. But again, for a larger organized event, it would be a great tool.

Having said that, another thought would be to videotape the event with a counter running on the video. You would be able to accurately see the moment the tools went in the lock, and the moment that the plug turned (assuming the lock is mounted, anyway). That would also provide a very accurate account of the actual time.

db

[Raccoon]

Indeed, this method is more involving, but having used it before to research duration and frequency of cricket cherps and mouse mating calls, I found that it was very easy and didn't take a lot of time.

The problem I see with video is getting an accurate start point to match with the end point. A timer needs to be started on the video, and that requires someone pressing a button. If the video had a constant running timer, you could subtract the end-time from the start-time to get the durration... but then you run into problems of obstructed view (hands, arm in the way) or blur. Also, video cameras only sample at 24 to 29 frames a second, where audio is sampled at 44,000 samples a second.

With a laptop and a microphone attached to the lock, I could quickly and easily see in the audio sample where the picks entered the lock and when the lock clicked open. I would simply click the mouse on those two points and be given a time in 1/1000'ths of a second.

[frostbyte]

Open the video with VDub (or equiv) and subtract the time of the frame with pick insertion from the time of the frame for plug rotation, and you've got a suitably accurate timing I would think.

[Raccoon]

Right. But again, you're dealing with video sampled at 29 frames a second, verse 44 thousand frames a second. With that in mind, video isn't even accurate to 1/100th of a second, and 1/10th of a second is still questionable. And again, you still have the problem of people's hands/arms getting in the way of the lock.

Anther issue is that video is so much larger and cumbersome to deal with. Where it takes seconds to load a wave sample, it would take minutes to load and render a video of identical length.

This is all negated if someone wanted to buy a $5,000 high-speed video camera. But again, the audio equivalent can be done for under $10.

[frollard]

have 2 flat switches on the table, wired to the stopwatch. basically, when you're done, put down the lock quckly, and press both switches (one with each hand)..

its how speed-cubers (rubicks cube) measure their times for solves, less than 10 seconds.

[Gordon Airporte]

I like the speed-cuber idea. You won't get the actual time from the pick touching the first pin to the lock opening, but as long as everyone is timed the same way it works.
I was also thinking foot-switches, but it would be hard to tell if the contestant was hitting it early. Maybe treat it like false starts in racing, you only get so many false stops, where you stop the timer but the lock isn't open. Still hard to referee for < 1 second picking.

[Silent Deena]

how can I set a car avatar on this message board?

[digital_blue]

how can I set a car avatar on this message board?

You can't. You can, however, set a sig image. There is a sticky in the FAQ section which tells you how to do that. Click my sig image for the grand tour.

db

[Varjeal]

Back on topic....how about mounting the lock on a board and include the bolt. Simply have a switch attached (depressed) against the bolt. When the lock is turned it opens (or closes depending on what you want) the switch and stops the clock.

[Raccoon]

Back on topic....how about mounting the lock on a board and include the bolt. Simply have a switch attached (depressed) against the bolt. When the lock is turned it opens (or closes depending on what you want) the switch and stops the clock.

How is the clock started? This still requires human interaction I'd try to avoid.


I do like the speed cuber idea aswell. It's simple and would be consistent enough to be fair to all.

Another bonus is, the times will be quite similar to the current hand stop-watch standard. Where as, by timing someone with a microphone from first metal contact to plug clicking open, everyone's times are going to be much lower than the times gathered from a hand held stop-watch. So this speed cuber method of timing would be easier to compare times to existing locksport competition results.

I guess perfection isn't necessary as long as everyone has a chance at a fair shot. The question is, by what set of rules should someone be timed by? Do you lay your hands on the table with your picks in their case and the lock sitting in front of you? Do you get to hold the lock? Do you get to hold a pick? Can you position the tension wrench in the lock before time starts? All important variables if we want competition times to become standard so records can be held and broken.

[bpc293]

have you guys competed if so how fast where you?

[Shrub]

I know its perhaps a bit simplistic but why not simply start the stop watch, place it on the table, pick your picks up and and lock and wait for the stop watch to hit 30 seconds and then start dead on that, simply knock 30 seconds off the final time to get the real time,

Other than that a pressure switch (or simular) with the lock on it would be ok wouldnt it? as soon as the lock is picked up the clock starts, as oon as its put back down it stops,

You could have a bit of foil over the keyway that is attached to a wire and has two sides to it, once the pick breacks the foil it makes a connection and starts the clock,

I personally dont think its about the time when a pick hits the lock but rather a point at which each person knows is consistant with the last, if your quicker picking a lock up off the table and inserting your pick then you get a better time,

It wouldnt be hard or expensive to make a load of official fool proof timers that read to a good tolerance and have whatever method of switching you want,

Computors and videoing are all too complicated and expensive for the small groups meeting in a pubs backroom for example,
I imagine a get together afterwards in a drinking establishment is common and if that happens youve got to worry where such equipment is going, if its just a small thing that fits in a pocket your laughing,

[Octillion]

A little obnoxious to take it this far, but here’s an idea. Connect a thin wire to the lock and torque tool. The wire can simply be wrapped around the contestant’s torque tool, while the other wire is screwed onto the back of the cylinder. It should be some high gauge wire (thin) of sufficient length so that it is similar to just having a thread attached to each, and should not interfere with regular picking. New wires may be used for each contestant on a new lock, so that they do not run the risk of breaking during picking.

Some computer or device can monitor the resistance between the two as a function of time, and when a given threshold is set you can determine when the torque tool is contacting the plug. But this would require that the standard be you must first enter the torque tool in the plug (start of time) before you use your pick, and that time stops when the torque tool is removed. If there are times in between where the picker pulls out and reinserts the torque tool, just ignore those times. There will be jumping in the signal anyway (sometimes called “bouncing”) when the tool is inserted or removed, so you will just take the first and last times when the signal crosses the threshold. To determine when the computer should mark the beginning and end of the signal, the picker may push a button before and after picking the lock, but the time when the picker hits the button is not critical like with a stopwatch. The only critical aspect is when the torque tool is first inserted and last removed. LED’s should be used to indicate the current state, so that faults in the system are easily determined (such as open circuit situations), and the timing be displayed. I could go into more detail, but I think I’m getting to the point that it can be done.

I think this is a bit extreme, but this timing scheme could be taken very accurately, more so than the other methods above.

[Raccoon]

I guess the question just remains, what's the standard?

I'm not so much worried about what people do in the back room of a pub, but what people do at the Dutch Open and LSI meets.

Having a pressure switch to pick the lock up and set it down on sounds good, but I like the idea of 2 sensors for your hands as one might accidentally bump the single switch while groping around for tools, etc.

I just thing a standard set of rules needs to be drafted. Whatever they might be. "Timer starts when you pick up the lock or your lock picks." "Timer stops when you have removed your lock picks from the lock, and set down the lock and lock picks." Something that everyone agrees on and times by.

The problem with this, however, is timing for people who can pop a lock in 5 seconds or less. The stop watch would reflect more time for picking up, setting down the lock and tools, than it would actual picking time. Also, picking up and setting down is really unfair to old people with arthritis. This is why I was thinking about an electronic counterpart which times the lock picking effort specifically, and excludes prep and old age.