Carrying picks in the UK

[midnight_rogue]

Hi guys

Police powers of stop and search are detailed under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 s.1

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/operati ... ode-intro/

There are many extras related to terrorism, misuse of drugs and other areas but the core statute is.

A constable may detain and search any person or vehicle or anything which is in or on a vehicle for prohibited articles, bladed articles or fireworks.In this case lock picks could fall under articles made or adapted for use or intended to be used in the course of any burglary theft or cheat.

An officer must have reasonable grounds to use this power. These are determined based on each individual situation. The detaining officer must suspect he'll find a prohibited article during the search.

The officer’s suspicion must be specific and has to be justified with good reason.

Code A 2.2 to 2.6 provides suspicion can be based on how a person behaves relevant to their location.Walking around at night obviously trying to conceal an item in an area where burglaries take place frequently is an example.

Suspicion cannot be based on race, religion age, appearance or even on previous criminal convictions.

The case of Samuels v Commissioner of the Police for the metropolis CCRTF 98/0410/2, March 3 1999, CA was concerned with the nature of reasonable suspicion.

A very interesting case I'll find a link

http://72.30.186.56/search/cache?ei=UTF ... 1&.intl=uk

Under section 1 and 2 an officer is only allowed to do a search of outer garments and gloves if in public view. More detailed searches have to be conducted elsewhere by an officer of the same sex.

An officer can detain you for the minimum amount of time necessary to conduct a search.

An officer will seek to gain co-operation but doesn't need it to conduct the search. They can use reasonable force to detain and search a person if it has been established that they are unwilling to co-operate or are trying to resist.

If a person is aware the search powers being used on them are unlawful and outside the grounds of the law they may use reasonable force to resist the search.

I DO NOT ADVICE THIS

A decision on whether a search is reasonable or not is made in court so it isn't wise to make a judgement like this during a search.

If you believe you have been searched improperly then seek professional legal advice.

[boatmaster]

[

2. If you are carrying picks then don't do anything stupid to attract the attention of the police. :idea:
If the picks are found, just explain that you were just going to show your friends what you had made.
Don't start mouthing off or giving them an attitude, they will just nick you for the fun of it.




also if it is raining the chances of being arrested are increased.(according to my police freinds.)

if someone is giving you attitude or is suspisious when it's raining then it is a good excuse to take the suspect back to the nick and then have a hot cuppa tea and a biscuit in the warm police station.

[darklighterz7611]

Atlast someone quoting PACE 1984

[quote="midnight_rogue"]
Under section 1 and 2 an officer is only allowed to do a search of outer garments and gloves if in public view. More detailed searches have to be conducted elsewhere by an officer of the same sex.[/quote]

I do law so im gonna sumarise the PACE for stop a search so people dont have to trawl through the act to get the meat and veg so to speak.

First the police must have reasonable grounds for suspicion before they start to search you. they basically must believe that there action could prevent an incident in their locality, involving serious injury loss of life, limb or death and not based on
the fact that you are a known troublemaker or look shady etc.

You must be told the pc number, name, station, the object the search is looking for and the grounds for proposing to make it, otherwise its an illegal search, and any lawyer/solicitor will be able to get charges dropped and disciplinary action toward pc and possibly the station.

Though if they search you for cannabis and find another illegal item etc you will still be liable for said item.

They can only do an outer clothing search (including hat and shoes) but they can also pat you down, and then if this pat down leads to reasonable grounds can take you in for a strip search, but you have to be taken into custody first.

And because of terrorism Act 2000 it means that the police can bend these rules and just say they thought you were a threat to security and you will be screwed. Basically on a normal day a socially acceptably looking and acting person would have more chance of winning the lottery than being searched.

If you are searched you are not required to give any details name or address unless your the driver of a vehicle.

As posted earlier in this thread the English legal system is a process of interpretation, and ts down to what method of interpretation the judge favours (Basically luck) so if worse comes to worse make them feel that you are harmless and pathetic and not a threat to society etc and you'll porbably get off with a slap on the wrist at most.

And lets be honest, most picks and tension wrenches are about 5mm wide or less and flat from that perspective, you could just tape the picks and stuff to your arm and im betting you wouldn't be able to feel it while being patted down. It would hardly be a challenge to make a carrying device which does the same.

[akmw44]

Hi to all,
My friend is in the police force and has been for some years now he stated that in reality its all down to where and when you get stopped and if any incident has taken place in the local area .
He commented that if you have picks and cutaways your less likely to have any hassle from over enthusuastic constables as you can educate them about our hobby.
I get the impresion that if a young ,tearaway gets stopped with jigglers or bumpkeys in the early hours thats when an arrest happens (and rightly so) but a respectable person in normal hours has nothing to worry about.dont ask me to define respectable.
A lot has changed in the past 5 years with locksports becoming more popular,common sense shouild prevail.

It would be an interesting thread to have about actual incidents in 2009/10 and not just the written LAW.

[1foula]

[quote]Hi to all,My friend is in the police force and has been for some years now he stated that in reality its all down to where and when you get stopped and if any incident has taken place in the local area .He commented that if you have picks and cutaways your less likely to have any hassle from over enthusuastic constables as you can educate them about our hobby.I get the impresion that if a young ,tearaway gets stopped with jigglers or bumpkeys in the early hours thats when an arrest happens (and rightly so) but a respectable person in normal hours has nothing to worry about.dont ask me to define respectable.A lot has changed in the past 5 years with locksports becoming more popular,common sense shouild prevail.It would be an interesting thread to have about actual incidents in 2009/10 and not just the written LAW.[/quote]
Excuse me for my bad language. I am assured, what is it — a lie.

[Louis_Traum]

I don't know about the laws in the UK, but in the US you can carry lockpicks on you as long as you're not doing something suspicious, or have other suspicious things on you. For example, if you have a pair of gloves with you and it's summertime, that is probable cause and you can be arrested.

[luckey]

I cannot believe that this post is still ongoing some 7 plus years after it was posted, when db was right all them years ago. You may get arrested for carrying picks but you will never get convicted if you can prove you are hobbyist, locksmith or have some other genuine reason for carrying the picks. If you have previous convictions for theft, burglary or stealing cars then you may be on dodgy ground. The circumstances are also relevant i.e. if you are trying to hide the picks or if you are carrying them in the middle of the night with no valid explanation could make a conviction all the more likely. As for crimes being committed by means of lock picking then the police will have your details on record and may want to question you if having once stopped and searched you and found lock picks in your possession and then subsequently burglaries start occurring and lock picking is the method of entry. Forensics can tell quite quickly and easily whether a lock was picked or not and can even tell whether the picker was actually an amateur or a professional. But yes, before you are charged the prosecution service will have to establish 'intent', which can either be going equipped with intent to commit theft, going equipped with intent to commit burglary or going equipped with intent to commit car theft. So, no it is not illegal to carry lock picks in the UK and the police do not make laws or interpret the law that is for judges. So for those of you who thought the question was can the police arrest you for carrying lock picks in the UK then the answer is a resounding yes unless you can prove simply and easily that you have a genuine purpose for carrying them. But it is not illegal to carry them.

[huxleypig]

I cannot believe that this post is still ongoing some 7 plus years after it was posted, when db was right all them years ago. You may get arrested for carrying picks but you will never get convicted if you can prove you are hobbyist, locksmith or have some other genuine reason for carrying the picks. If you have previous convictions for theft, burglary or stealing cars then you may be on dodgy ground. The circumstances are also relevant i.e. if you are trying to hide the picks or if you are carrying them in the middle of the night with no valid explanation could make a conviction all the more likely. As for crimes being committed by means of lock picking then the police will have your details on record and may want to question you if having once stopped and searched you and found lock picks in your possession and then subsequently burglaries start occurring and lock picking is the method of entry. Forensics can tell quite quickly and easily whether a lock was picked or not and can even tell whether the picker was actually an amateur or a professional. But yes, before you are charged the prosecution service will have to establish 'intent', which can either be going equipped with intent to commit theft, going equipped with intent to commit burglary or going equipped with intent to commit car theft. So, no it is not illegal to carry lock picks in the UK and the police do not make laws or interpret the law that is for judges. So for those of you who thought the question was can the police arrest you for carrying lock picks in the UK then the answer is a resounding yes unless you can prove simply and easily that you have a genuine purpose for carrying them. But it is not illegal to carry them.

I could post a whole essay on this subject and the points you have raised there but I will try to keep it short.

Firstly, I do not think using the reason of being a hobbyist will get you very far, you will need to prove more than that (locksmith business, previous work etc).

'To be convicted of 'Going equipped' the prosecution have to prove intent. So they need firm evidence that you ARE going to use whatever 'dodgy' items they find on you for a specific crime. Just saying 'you are out to steal with them' is not enough.

Really, you are fine so long as you don't take them out of the house, it is then that you start getting into dodgy ground.

[AspiringLockpicker]

Just a quick bump to say thank you to the participants of this thread. It has helped me understand the various facets of this topic. At work I am the MacGyver, the 'relative' of Bear Grylls. In my extended EDC backpack I have tons of things I take to work. First aid, tools, some bugout bag type things like a high vis bag for cover to sleep in and a space blanket for warmth, because I mean why not indeed

I am a resource guy. I like having things in case I need them. On my person I have a few various little multi-tool type things that are all UK legal, for the various tools they contain, first aid, flashlight, share light batteries, smartphone, a 2-piece bogota lock pick miniature set and a sparrows titanium hall pass which is good to exit a room if the door handle is broken (contrary to what people think they are not really effective to get IN to a room/building most of the time)

Ironically I feel fine carrying all the stuff I carry but had a slight concern about my 2 lock picks. Now I feel fine about it because I am not a criminal, I am a pretty good guy and I would explain if need be that I am a low grade hobby picker. I have a couple 40mm padlocks clipped to the molly webbing on my backpack too so if I get bored when I am out and about and happen to have my backpack with me, I can mess around with my locks.

Now I am planning on getting a couple of sparrows mace little mini lock picks and accompanying tension tools, just enough to add a bit more utility to my EDC pick set but not enough to where I'm lugging around a whole big kit around or anything though. I just want just enough that one day it may prove useful. Of course I need to practice more though if I have a hope of my lock picking "skills" saving the day in the future I have a hard enough time SPP tight tolerance standard locks, let alone dealing with security pins for which I randomly get limited success.

So thanks again. I hope others find this old and constantly rejuvenated thread, it certainly has provided me with a lot of perspectives to make my decision.

[huxleypig]

The cops sure can try to get you with going equipped but unless you shit yourself and plead guilty, they will never get a conviction at trial. You see, in order to be guilty of this, you not only have to be in possession 'burglarious instruments' (could be a brick) but the prosecution also has to prove (beyond reasonable doubt) that you WERE (not may have) going to use them for a specific future crime.

So unless you have written out a burglary itinerary, along with details of the tools to be used, then they will never even take it to trial and if they do they will be wasting their time. Proving a potential future event is not easy.

Conversely, if you are found at someone's front door at 3am fiddling with the lock AND have lockpicks...then you're going to be in trouble. If the cops simply stop you, search you, then find lockpicks then don't worry.