Sparrows Revolver Help

[InLibrisVitae]

Please move or delete if this is not the correct forum.

I am a total noob, having picked only a few locks via patience and luck.
I've been reading through Deviant Ollam's book on lockpicking, and I find it hugely informative.
I possess a sparrows vorax tool kit as well as a revolver and a reload kit.

If there is anyone here who has a sparrows revolver, I have several questions about it.
There may be pictures of the product online for those who do not own one but would still like to help.

1. What is the pin on the back of the plug for? Why does the retaining ring keep it held down?
2. Do all of the key pins need to be completely flush with the plug when the key is inserted?
3. Is it normal for the lock to be so stiff? I can use the key to turn the lock around with some effort but sometimes I can't
get the key in, can't get the key out, can't turn ccw, can't turn cw, can't turn the plug at all, etc.
4. I have modified the starting point of the lock so that there is only one standard pin in the frontmost position.
If I try to pick this section of the lock, I can turn the plug with a turning tool easily. This shouldn't be possible as far as I
understand.
5. How am I supposed to eject the plug without every pin and spring in the lock falling out? Every time I try the plug follower
the plug gets stuck and I have to attempt to force it out.
6. While trying to pick the lock a few springs were bent severely. Why would this happen?

Any help with these questions would be appreciated. I primarily bought the revolver so I wouldn't have to buy progressive locks and so I could have an infinite number of possibilities in order to augment my education on the subject.

[petemoss]

Hi ILV,

Let me start off by saying that I was personally very disappointed with the revolver and had a lot of problems with it. Some were my fault, some were not.

1. If I remember correctly, the pin should be protruding and that is what keeps the retaining ring in place. In other words you should be required to push the pin inward in order to remove the ring for disassembly.
2. If I understand the question correctly, then yes. It is the same as any other lock except that there are three other half-locks that are already at the sheer line.
3. Yes, the thing sucks. Although, often stiffness means that you have one or more bent spring in the mechanism and the wire from them is being smashed into the sheer line.
4. I'm sorry, I don't really follow this one.
5. As confounded as this thing is I don't think I would even try to remove the plug without removing each pin stack individually first.
6. Ahh yes, the bent springs. This may be related to #3 above. See here viewtopic.php?f=8&t=65694&p=488613#p488613 for my experience with this issue.

I hope you have better luck than I did.

[InLibrisVitae]

Thanks Petemoss, both for the info and responding so swiftly. As far as the retaining ring goes I suppose the mechanism makes sense.
Is that standard on other plugs that you have seen? I am so green that I've only disassembled one lock aside from the revolver which used a simple retaining clip.

Question 2 was more for repinning purposes as I wanted to ensure I was not putting the key pins in the wrong way so that they would jut out of the plug and stop the lock cylinder's movement.

I've ruled out the springs being the problem as of now, given that I can rotate the lock 360 degrees cw and ccw with the key. I have pulled a few bent springs out of the thing though.

Theoretically, a single driver pin should be enough for a simple lock, right? So if I have one standard pin at the front of the lock, shouldn't it keep the lock locked until I move it out of the way by lifting the key pin underneath it?
The only reason I can think of that a single pin should not stop the plug turning at all is that there might be some minute machining error preventing the driver pin making complete contact with the key pin.

Removing every single pin stack manually is just aggravating. However, I've already disassembled and reassembled this lock more times than could be reasonably expected.

After reading through your post I'm pretty certain the springs are of low quality. It might have been the case that a driver pin fell into the plug, but I'm perplexed as to why driver pins would ever fall out of the lock cylinder.
Why not just make the chambers a little smaller than the diameter of the pin at the bottom so that the lock can operate but the driver pins would never fall out?

Unfortunately I just don't have the experience to judge whether this is a decent learning tool or even of adequate quality. I may have to resort to progressives or cutaways, but I was hoping to save money by essentially making my own progressive lock set.

[GWiens2001]

Combining the stiff turning, the previous bent springs, and picking the one standard pin at the front of the pin stack allowing the cylinder to turn adds up to a poor pinning job by whoever set up the lock cylinders in the first place.

If you combine the key pin and the driver pin in any pin stack, the two combined should be tall enough to cause the driver pin to block the shear line (peek above the plug) when no key is inserted in the lock. That should happen with each and every pin stack.

If a short key pin (for a tall part of the key) is combined with a short driver pin, the result is too short a pin stack, which means that the driver spring is what blocks the shear line. That pin stack, especially when picking, is at strong risk of being turned with the driver spring blocking the shear line. That is how the springs get bent as they are forced to wrap around the plug when the plug is turned. That causes hard turning, both from when the spring is wrapped around the plug and from the damage to the plug and cylinder shell caused by that spring. So even when the damaged spring is removed, the lock still does not function correctly.

If a long key pin (for a short part of the key) is combined with a long driver pin, then the spring can be crushed when the key pin is pushed to the top of the keyway by a tall cut on the key blade. In severe combination of long key pin and driver pin it can even prevent the key from being pushed into the keyway past the point of those pins.

In summary, longer key pins should be balanced with a shorter driver pin, while a shorter key pin should have a longer driver pin. Most keying specifications have AT LEAST two sizes of driver pins (as with Kwikset), some have three (as with Schlage) all the way up to the better locks which require a different driver pin length for each key pin length. This results in balanced pin stacks, which by keeping the total pin stack roughly (Kwikset) to exactly (Best) the same height when no key is inserted mean the springs are under similar loads. The driver pin almost always blocks the shear line at rest, with the rare exception of a key pin for the deepest depth possible for some key specifications in which even at rest the key pin is at the shear line so that pin does not need to be picked at all. If it is picked it may be lifted up, causing it to block the shear line.

Yes, this explanation gets a little into the weeds with detail and lock lingo, but it really is necessary to understand what is going on with your locks.

Hope it helps.

Gordon

[InLibrisVitae]

Thanks for the reply Gordon.

I tried to repin the lock myself. I thought it would be easier than it's turning out to be.

I think you have described exactly where I have gone wrong. I was under the impression that all driver pins were the same length. I have no idea how to separate the driver pins into discrete lengths because they look identical to the naked eye.

I suppose I could painstakingly measure each of the 30 or so driver pins I have and match them to key pins… but I do not have digital calipers or a magnifying glass that I could use to sort them. You'd think with a practice lock they could just label the pins so you get a feel for what the common driver pin lengths are.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the plug and lock cylinder be much harder than the spring? How could the spring damage the lock if it wasn't hard enough to scratch either the plug or the cylinder?

I did at least understand all the jargon you described in your comment. I love knowing how things work and how to manipulate knowledge of an objects inner workings to my advantage. It is as your signature says though, the only thing we can ever truly know is that we don't know anything.

[GWiens2001]

The shell and plug are much softer than the springs. They are usually made of brass, sometimes with a nickel plating. And really cheap locks use Zamak (a soft alloy that is easy to cast), and even cheaper ones use - believe it or not - plastic for the shell.

The makers of the lock - or at least the person who pinned the lock, may have used all the same length driver pins. I learned that one local "locksmith" - and I use that term only to describe the occupation, not the skill level- has been pinning locks for years only using three pin channels. Even on commercial locks. A couple of the other locksmiths I know frequently get called in to fix things after the scammer has been there and have both noticed the three pin channel jobs.

Gordon

[InLibrisVitae]

I suppose sparrows did not use driver pins of the same length then. It is unfortunate that any provider of services requiring specialized knowledge must be trusted implicitly by anyone who wishes to have a service provided for them. Unless the customer knows as much as the locksmith, a lock is a lock and the parts inside it don't matter until the stop working.

[demux]

I suppose sparrows did not use driver pins of the same length then. It is unfortunate that any provider of services requiring specialized knowledge must be trusted implicitly by anyone who wishes to have a service provided for them. Unless the customer knows as much as the locksmith, a lock is a lock and the parts inside it don't matter until the stop working.

I have to respectfully disagree, at least to a point. While it's true that no one person can be an expert in everything, you can do a bit of research and educate yourself on things you don't understand if you're having someone work on them for you.

I make no claims to be an HVAC technician for example, but a couple of years ago when I had my home air conditioning replaced I learned enough to understand the meanings of terms like tons, SEER, charge, braze, condenser, etc, and was able to ask intelligent questions based on those.

It's amazingly easy to find at least basic info on most things these days, and I think if the installer has a sense that you at least sort of understand what you're talking about, you're much less likely to get taken advantage of. And you will be much more able to tell if something seems way out of line. Going back to my previous example, if my HVAC guy had hauled out a soldering gun to try connecting my new refrigerant lines, I would have been having words with him about his actual qualifications...