Carrying picks in the UK

[midnight_rogue]

Hi everyone

i'm a bit of a student of English law so know a few cases you may want to read regarding s.25 of the TA 1968.

I'd say firstly it's up to the discretion of the officer involved whether he nicks you or not. Members of the Police vary in intelligence like everyone else, being honest and treating them with due respect is in your interest.

In court it isn't necessary to prove that you fully intended to use the picks for any theft or burglary rather all that is necessary is to prove a general intention that it could be used illegally if the opportunity arised.

Ellanes [1974] 3 ALL ER 130 also found in [1974] WLR 1391, CA

however no offence under this section is commited if you don't have a firm intention to use the picks for any theft or burglary.

Hargreaves [1985] Crim LR 243, CA

my personal recommendation is don't carry them around unless you have a very good reason[/color]

sorry i can't provide links... it's a bit early in the morning and I have an essay to start, but i'm sure you'll find something if you copy and paste them into a search engine.

[lokedin]

thanks midnight_rogue,

after you put it like that it almost seems like comon sense. but i have to ask how are you "a bit of a student"? in other words what is your conection to this area?

for example do you word for a presecution service, locksmith, are you a law student or have you been caught with picks?

im not arguing with the advice (in fact i agree) but others may want to know how you have coma about this knowledge.

thanks for the help

lokedin

[midnight_rogue]

Hi Lokedin

No problems,

I'm studying in a department of investigative sciences at university aiming to convert to a postgraduate law degree and have studied the Theft Acts of 1968, 1978 and the Theft Ammendment Act of 1996 in quite some detail.

I accessed the case law from a legal data base hoping to contribute to a UK law thread on this forum.

I'm no expert mind you and not a qualified legal advisor, but I have done my best to provide a general idea on the Courts stance regarding this legislation at the current time.

My own personal advice to everyone in the UK is still not to carry any picks in public unless you have a veryyyy good and lawful reason.

[lokedin]

cool...good luck with the postgrad course and thanks for the advice.

[midnight_rogue]

no worries and thanks

When I got interested in lock picking (not so long ago) I was glad I was already aware of the law concerning the subject

I think it's in everyone's interest in this forum they know as much about their own domestic law whether it be the legal academia of the Courts or it's practical application by law enforcement officers at ground level.

[Seachmall]

What about the fact that the police can't randomly stop and search you without propper cause? As far as I'm aware they can't touch your person without your express permission however its not uncommon for them to search you anyway. It works on line-of-sight, if the picks are in view they're 'fair game' for any police to question you about however if they're in your pocket and out of view the cops can't see and ask about them.

In English law, any interference with your personal liberty beyond, say, a tap on the shoulder, is prima facie unlawful. Similarly, it is a trespass to enter another person's home without that person's permission, or to interfere with another person's property. This applies as much to the police as it does to anyone else. It follows that unless a right to stop and/or search is granted by a specific legal provision, the search will be unlawful.

http://www.kevinboone.com/stopsearch.html

Note: This does not apply for American citizens, under the new 'Terror Acts' random searchs are justified (although I believe if you're stopped for a certain amount of time without cause that constitutes as harrasment, not 100% sure though).

[Afisch]

In the UK, refusal of search is seen as due grounds for search as far as I'm aware.

[Seachmall]

In the UK, refusal of search is seen as due grounds for search as far as I'm aware.

No, refusal of search is excerising your rights however if you do refuse it might be seen as suspicious but if there is no just cause for searching...

Also, a police officers gut feeling is not considered just cause, they must have undeniable evidence or reason to back up a search. If an officer comes to your house or pulls you over you don't have to let them in to search your house or car (unless you were speeding etc.).

If you zip up your pockets or jacket, lock your car or step outside of your house and close the door behind you its a phyiscal sign that your refusing a search and any action from the officer to continue a search will put him in a legal 'pickle'. It is always reccomended to back these up by verbalising expressing unwillingness to a search.

These are more clear cut in American law (numerouse DVDs and sites on the subject) but I'm currently looking for a source for the last paragraph in English law, if anyone has one can they please post it. Until a source is present take the last paragraph with a grain of salt (I read it somewhere but can't remember where ).

[phil the drill]

if you're not a locksmith why would you have a set of picks about your person when out and about.
if you're a bonfide locksmith you wouldn't have anything to worry about but if it's a hobby........ well,,,,,, leave your picks at home !
i will drill'em and bill 'em if i can get in without creating damage but i don't carry my drill around with me everywhere.....even if it is my favourite tool of my job !! lots of noise and lots of mess and looks like a good job done.!

[Seachmall]

if you're not a locksmith why would you have a set of picks about your person when out and about.
if you're a bonfide locksmith you wouldn't have anything to worry about but if it's a hobby........ well,,,,,, leave your picks at home !
i will drill'em and bill 'em if i can get in without creating damage but i don't carry my drill around with me everywhere.....even if it is my favourite tool of my job !! lots of noise and lots of mess and looks like a good job done.!

Assuming you are stopped and found to have picks what ever happened to Innocent Until Proven Guilty?

Unless they can prove your intend to use the picks for illegal activities (trespassing, in the proccess of breaking into a house etc.) they can't touch you. You are given the benefit of the doubt unless otherwise proven.

If they bring you in to the station without formally arresting you you can leave, if they do arrest you and its proven you were innocent I'm not sure if theres anything you can do but file a complaint, but thats a waste of time and money.

As far as I'm aware they can hold you for 3 days without arresting you but at this stage you'll have a lawyer and won't bother with random people on forums for legal advice

[Afisch]

They would be carried to lockpick places other than you own house but which are private. Such as with friends. There are lockpicking meetings which people carry thier picks to. When carrying picks and locks it's fairly clear your a hobbyist.

Wondering round at night through the streets, not a good idea.

I am not advising people to do this, if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time it could cause unecessary haslte you want to avoid.

[phil the drill]

lockpicking meetings ?!!! do me a favour thats got to be as bad as train spotting or eddie stobbart lorry names collecting.......come on guys i'm only having a little bit of fun with you.... when you do it all day you dont want to spend an evening doing it for fun !!!
I've got better things to do....especially my wife..hehehehe

seeya guys have fun at your next meet

yours in jest

Phil the drill

[protect4u]

A cop will look at various points of an encounter with someone with lock picks:

1) Subject's criminal records or the lack of.
2) The time of day
3) The location of the stop (in area of burglaries?)
4) Subject's attitude
5) Subject's explanation for having the picks (legitimate explanation vs just a hobby)

These all are elements that might justify the officer making the arrest on Possession of Burglary Tools.

You run the risk of being arrested based on an officer's discretion.

[UWSDWF]

5) Subject's explanation for having the picks (legitimate explanation vs just a hobby)

sooo a hobby isn't legitimate.... I'm illegitimate?

[Seachmall]

5) Subject's explanation for having the picks (legitimate explanation vs just a hobby)

sooo a hobby isn't legitimate.... I'm illegitimate?

Hobby is a reason and a perfectly legitimate one at that. People seem to think the police will arrest you simply for carrying picks if you can't explain why you have them, thats not how it works. Its not up to you to prove you have them for legitimate reasons its up to them to prove that you don't.