Interesting article about the good / bad of being registered

[mongo]

locfoc, yeah that is unfortunate. Bad builders are another animal. The Construction carpenters have yet to make licensing mandatory, yet there is an exam. One of the best examples of trade organization has to be the Electricians in Ontario.
Many years ago they had non-qualified people wire your house and burning it to the groound, there was zero accountability or standardization. They had no Governance..they do now. All electricians who have a business where they conduct work must not only be licensed by the province they have to be board certified through TSSA (technical safety standards association)
You can call most of them and their prices are the same, for the most part. They did the ground breaking work to get an OA in place ensuring that a Qualification Standard (QS) was created etc.

On licensing. I am a licensed mechanic Red Seal, Inter-provincial. It costs me $100 to write any of my exams. With that license I can re-coup the cost by having an employer pay me more for my knowledge and education. Apprenctices make dirt and corn feed and must still go to school and remain current. Journeymen make about $25 and up, but you gotta have a license to make better cash.

[locfoc]

yea it's worth investing your time to get certifications.

[Engineer]

I know this thread is getting a bit old now, but it's good news!

Some states in the U.S. are already fighting back against some of the nastier tricks used on the public - Such as lots of "different" locksmiths being listed, all with different numbers, but all leading back to the same company in effect:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/7D7DE3E74BA2BEFF8625758E00103B9D?OpenDocument

[mongo]

If you get the TV program Holmes on Homes, you can see that some people are just asking to be ripped. And in this world we have people who feed off them. I hate them, laws and prison may not be the answer.

[cryptocat]

One major problem I have with certification is that it limits hobbyist access. If you start certifying trades exclusively through some byzantine apprenticeship program, and restrict tool access to only licensed tradesmen, you criminalize any hobbyist tinkerer. I'd be more supportive of certification if it were more accessible. It shouldn't be any harder to get a hobby locksmith certification than it is to get a gun license. $75 - $150 and about 6 hours in a lecture. Similar sorts of rules. Civilians don't get to point guns at other people, civilians don't get to pick other people's locks (especially not acting like a business).

Rant below, highlight the text if you really want to read it.

Locksmithing is not a lethal trade - that almost made me spray juice on my keyboard.

You are not dealing in things where shoddy work directly gets people killed (like firearms or medicine). There may be good reasons to license locksmiths - to have some guarantee of quality workmanship for example - but immediate risk to life and limb doesn't seem like a plausible risk. We might all agree that unlicensed medical services are generally a bad idea, but licensing doesn't magically make an excellent practitioner. Also, as a society, we have accepted that some levels of unlicensed medical service are OK - you don't have to be licensed to perform first aid procedures, and giving out common pharmaceuticals like aspirin or decongestants is done without a second thought. Done wrong those can be fatal. We don't license the kids who serve us at fast food restaurants - sure the business is inspected once a year, what about the other 364 days?

You say "this industry is about appearances and trust" - that scares me. I interpret it as selling something that looks secure but isn't. Trust is necessary, but you get that from hard data and proof, not just looking pretty. I hope you're educating your clients about all their exposures, not just selling them a magical security device and letting them feel secure. A door with 3 different high-security locks is kinda lame if it's just a sheet of glass in the middle. I'm no less secure knowing how useless my locks are - arguably, I am more secure knowing than not.

(end rant)

[unlisted]

One major problem I have with certification is that it limits hobbyist access. If you start certifying trades exclusively through some byzantine apprenticeship program, and restrict tool access to only licensed tradesmen, you criminalize any hobbyist tinkerer. I'd be more supportive of certification if it were more accessible. It shouldn't be any harder to get a hobby locksmith certification than it is to get a gun license. $75 - $150 and about 6 hours in a lecture. Similar sorts of rules. Civilians don't get to point guns at other people, civilians don't get to pick other people's locks (especially not acting like a business).

Rant below, highlight the text if you really want to read it.

Locksmithing is not a lethal trade - that almost made me spray juice on my keyboard.

You are not dealing in things where shoddy work directly gets people killed (like firearms or medicine). There may be good reasons to license locksmiths - to have some guarantee of quality workmanship for example - but immediate risk to life and limb doesn't seem like a plausible risk. We might all agree that unlicensed medical services are generally a bad idea, but licensing doesn't magically make an excellent practitioner. Also, as a society, we have accepted that some levels of unlicensed medical service are OK - you don't have to be licensed to perform first aid procedures, and giving out common pharmaceuticals like aspirin or decongestants is done without a second thought. Done wrong those can be fatal. We don't license the kids who serve us at fast food restaurants - sure the business is inspected once a year, what about the other 364 days?

You say "this industry is about appearances and trust" - that scares me. I interpret it as selling something that looks secure but isn't. Trust is necessary, but you get that from hard data and proof, not just looking pretty. I hope you're educating your clients about all their exposures, not just selling them a magical security device and letting them feel secure. A door with 3 different high-security locks is kinda lame if it's just a sheet of glass in the middle. I'm no less secure knowing how useless my locks are - arguably, I am more secure knowing than not.

(end rant)

Apparently your NOT from Canada.... Your first aid statement and Medication dispensing is a tad off for this country.

[cryptocat]

Apparently your NOT from Canada.... Your first aid statement and Medication dispensing is a tad off for this country. [/quote]

No, I am from the Great White North. Guess I'll have to go read up on regulations surrounding first aid and so forth - I don't recall anything about liability since I did a course back in scouts. Maybe it wasn't mentioned to us since we were all about 12. Haven't tried to administer first aid since then and these days I wouldn't feel comfortable doing more than handing someone a tube of antibiotic and a band-aid.

I think my point holds though: I don't think there's a thriving market for unlicensed appendectomies or open-heart surgeries, but there is a small list of medical procedures that the general populace feels is appropriate for self-administration. Same with car and home repairs. Do-it-yourself is a well established tradition. I'd like to see the same sort of understanding surrounding security technologies.

Yeah, when I become evil emperor, I'm totally going to order a cleanup of laws.

[mongo]

well, I agree with you cryptocat that there exists many trades that shouldn't have the regulation that presently exists. What you must consider in our commercialy driven and over labeled product society, is that it is the consumer who asks for it in the first place, thats the basis for all civil law. The locals complain in large qtys and it either is written into Law or becomes common law. You gotta get them to deregulate it,,good luck...the homes that burned to the ground by the 'electrician'; the the roof caved in under the snow load...this is a long list man
you, today, with credit card in hand go online (you need a printer) Canada Business Licenses. Its 50 bucks (last year anyway). Fill out the info sheet and voila, print your Business License...Now what, you claim to be a ??? what,,,a trade that present industry recognizes, yet doesnt need a ticket...Locksmith, go ahead no law stopping you in Ontario, cant speak for the others,,,but I think you will find as you alluded to earlier, the industry will prevent you from accessing certain areas within itself. The industry will also protect itself. We cant have incompetants destroying the trade credibility. Locks fall under security. Thats Security capital S. When you have gained the training and experience in this or any trade you will have several advantages over the hobbiest. Peer review, background checks, certification, and just maybe credability. whats your trade?

[lockguy8]

having been licenced in B.C. and alberta i can say its a lot easier in alberta, how many locksmith companys in vancouver ,compared to alberta big citys, very similar licencing fingerprints etc, but way lower fees in alberta, sask ,and no old boy network, like get a letter from your boss stating that your a good guy and that he would welcome another locksmith company in the area , a background check , a big fat payment to the solisitor general and your all set, maybe, maybe not we will decide after you send in your payment, in alberta and sask its way easier, is the quality of work better in alberta , mmmmm hard to say the only province with real locksmith schooling, yet not required for a locksmith licence, if you do quality work you get repeat business, if you do substandard work you give your trade a bad name and go broke kind of self regulating imho. and i like it that way.

[sevedus]

Great thread…I loved the Rant!

I think anyone who certifies the competence or ethics of another is begging for liability implications. This is why we cannot sue the licensing body of our doctors, lawyers, auto mechanics, etc. when they malpractice. We’re obliged to sue the doctor, lawyer, etc. directly in civil court. Unless they fraudulently represent themselves as certified (in addition to the malpractice) there’s little room for a criminal proceeding.
Laying responsibility on the lock manufacturers is problematic too. Even if a lock-maker decides, as a matter of distribution policy, to make a product “Available Only Through Reputable/Certified Vendors”, how could they effectively screen them? When the inevitable bad guy slips through the pickets and there are consequences will the lock-maker acquire liability for flawed distribution? That’s almost the case with handguns.
Lots of posts suggest current laws, properly enforced, are the solution. I absolutely barf to say this, but… If any law is to be more rigorously enforced or strengthened, pressure must be applied to the enforcement mechanism, causing it to re-prioritize. If the penalty for impersonating (in person, over the phone, or online) a licensed (certified, registered, etc.) locksmith carried very certain $ub$tantial con$equen$e$, (in terms of fines and restitution), then there would be more incentive for victims to prosecute, for prosecutors to enforce, and for the perpetrators to shift their counterfeiting to a venue of lower monetary risk.
So where is the (gag) political action committee that’s going to take my donation and then lobby for more enforcement and enactment of tougher laws? I know politics is ugly but in these days of “Homeland Security” the politicians are vulnerable to cries of neglect and oversight at obvious security risks. Where, please, is the banner that says, “Homeland Security Begins in the HOME-Jail Counterfeit Locksmiths!”?
I’m ranting now. Thanks for the rant-space. Good night.

Stephen