Lock Picking 101 Forum
A community dedicated to the fun and ethical hobby of lock picking.
       

Lock Picking 101 Home
Login
Profile
Members
Forum Rules
Frequent Forum Questions
SEARCH
View New Posts
View Active Topics


Live Chat on Discord
LP101 Forum Chat
Keypicking Forum Chat
Reddit r/lockpicking Chat



Learn How to Pick Locks
FAQs & General Questions
Got Beginner Questions?
Pick-Fu [Intermediate Level]


Ask a Locksmith
This Old Lock
This Old Safe
What Lock Should I Buy?



Hardware
Locks
Lock Patents
Lock Picks
Lock Bumping
Lock Impressioning
Lock Pick Guns, Snappers
European Locks & Picks
The Machine Shop
The Open Source Lock
Handcuffs


Member Spotlight
Member Introductions
Member Lock Collections
Member Social Media


Off Topic
General Chatter
Other Puzzles


Locksmith Business Info
Training & Licensing
Running a Business
Keyways & Key Blanks
Key Machines
Master Keyed Systems
Closers and Crash Bars
Life Safety Compliance
Electronic Locks & Access
Locksmith Supplies
Locksmith Lounge


Buy Sell Trade
Buy - Sell - Trade
It came from Ebay!


Advanced Topics
Membership Information
Special Access Required:
High Security Locks
Vending Locks
Advanced Lock Pick Tools
Bypass Techniques
Safes & Safe Locks
Automotive Entry & Tools
Advanced Buy/Sell/Trade


Locksport Groups
Locksport Local
Chapter President's Office
Locksport Board Room
 

Key Copying Legal Question

This is the old Locksmith business info area and will be broken down to fill in the new sections below.

Key Copying Legal Question

Postby WolfSpring » 17 May 2010 17:51

I have a question about the legality of copying keys. I know I can copy my own personel keys for my own personel locks, and I know not to copy the key's that say government key do not copy, wihout permission of the key control of said key. But if I wanted to get a general buisness license and make key copies what are the laws behind that? Do I need to be licensed/bonded or anything great like that? Just ideas running through my head of which direction I want to move as I have a career in the military but might like to do the locksmith trade as a retirement gig, but I'd have no expereince, be 40 years old and starting from scratch.

Thanks
What most people call intelligence I call common sense.
WolfSpring
 
Posts: 291
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 9:32
Location: Colorado

Re: Key Copying Legal Question

Postby MarkC » 17 May 2010 18:44

Key duplication is not a regulated service. Anyone can do it and you don't need bonding/licensing. Around here you can get keys cut at Wal-Mart, Home Depot, and convenience stores. You just need a key machine and some blanks.

I wouldn't worry too much about "illegal duplication" of keys. When security matters, most institutions will use restricted/high-security keys that you couldn't even get the blanks for.

Mark
MarkC
 
Posts: 45
Joined: 7 Dec 2008 0:09
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Key Copying Legal Question

Postby WolfSpring » 17 May 2010 19:12

What about the Best Keys. I'm military and we use Best locks and the keys are stamped U.S. Gov Do No Copy or duplication not authorized. I found these key blanks:

http://www.lockpicks.com/bestabe2.aspx

My unit, who is in control of the keys has already told me I can make copies, as long as we tracked and signed them out, which makes a little sense, but they are not ultimately responsible for the building, the Post key control/building control people are. Thanks for the information on the licenseing/bonding question.
What most people call intelligence I call common sense.
WolfSpring
 
Posts: 291
Joined: 12 Aug 2009 9:32
Location: Colorado

Re: Key Copying Legal Question

Postby Legion303 » 18 May 2010 7:59

I would be very wary of copying government controlled keys, whether you own the lock or not. Simple possession of mail facility "arrow keys" can get you into serious trouble. Also some DND keys are protected by copyright, and AFAIK there isn't any "fair use" provision for them like there is with making backups of your legally owned movies and CDs.

-steve
User avatar
Legion303
 
Posts: 2343
Joined: 6 May 2006 6:52
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Key Copying Legal Question

Postby MacGyver101 » 18 May 2010 8:49

darkstar614 wrote:If a key says anything about not copying it, and you Do copy it, the owner of the institution, whatever it may be can legally require you to pay for a total rekey of the facility.

Really? Is that a state or a federal law that says that?
Image
User avatar
MacGyver101
Moderator Emeritus
 
Posts: 1560
Joined: 21 Jun 2006 14:40
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Key Copying Legal Question

Postby Evan » 18 May 2010 10:01

Here it goes again... This is essentially a rehashing of the Duplication Prohibited - do you agree? thread resulting from a slightly different initiating question...

You have to take care to ensure that any key you duplicate is not protected by any federal, state, county or city/town code, law or ordinance which protects keys marked in a certain way from being duplicated... There are federal laws protecting the postal service "Arrow" keys which operate the postal service access on mail containers and distribution boxes, USPS Post Office Box keys are also protected, as are any keys marked "U.S. Property - Do Not Duplicate" which operate locks at federally owned facilities and these are the ONLY keys protected on a national basis... Some states have laws protecting keys to state property like large institutional facilities and colleges/universities and such keys will be marked "State Property - Do Not Duplicate" so you should familiarize yourself with your market area and the location of nearby state facilities if your state has such a law... Counties and local governments can establish such protections too, NYC and LA are the only two places I am aware of that have a blanket ban on copying keys generically marked "Do Not Duplicate" within the city limits...

Those state and local rules are easily avoidable, to obtain a duplicate copy of a "Do Not Duplicate" key in such a locality a person merely needs to cross a jurisdictional border where the state or local law no longer applies... Therefore the only keys truly protected by such laws are the keys protected at the federal level...

Locksmiths often have contractual obligations that they need to meet with the lock manufacturers for high security key duplication where every key blank the locksmith (dealer) possesses must be properly accounted for... Such lock manufacturers will have the dealer issue an identification instrument (usually an imprint card with an ID number on it) for each unique key bitting code which has to be presented at the dealer to obtain additional duplicates of high security keys covered under the dealer/manufacturer contract agreement...

darkstar614 wrote:If a key says anything about not copying it, and you Do copy it, the owner of the institution, whatever it may be can legally require you to pay for a total rekey of the facility. This happened to an ex boss of mine once in (around) 1995 in Ohio.


To address this comment, I would ask for some reference to a state law which applies to such a situation... That sounds like it was a breach of a contractual agreement somewhere rather than an enforcement action of a governmental law or code... Such agreements are usually made between key holder and key issuer and the key holder must sign an agreement wherein they agree to pay for the costs of rekeying if they lose their key or obtain unauthorized duplicate copies of said key which breach the security of the facility...

Some locksmiths fall into a religious/dogmatic belief that they should establish a blanket policy to require a "letter of authorization" for each and every key marked "Do Not Duplicate" a customer walks into their location requesting a copy of... I think that this is a bad decision to make as it could be establishing at their own choice to do so, a "duty of care" to ensure that such "instruments of authorization" they require customers to produce are actually VALID and that the company identified in the letter actually owns the key or keys it is accompanying and that the individual who has signed the letter is indeed authorized to make such contractual statements and declarations on behalf of the company... I recommend only requiring such letters of authorization for keying systems a locksmith shop has established and has information stipulated in a contractual agreement about who is and isn't authorized to permit agents of the company to obtain duplicate keys... Otherwise it is very prudent to ONLY follow the exact procedures established by the high security lock manufacturers for the specific types of keys in question, as otherwise you may be imposing a "duty to care" upon yourself and your company that would otherwise not exist...

WolfSpring: I wish you the best of luck in your new business endeavors if you decide to pursue them...

~~ Evan
Evan
 
Posts: 1489
Joined: 5 Apr 2010 17:09
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Key Copying Legal Question

Postby globallockytoo » 23 May 2010 8:33

In my opinion, restricting duplication is the responsibility of the manufacturer of the keyblanks. Not the duplicator. However, written or gentlemen agreements still need to be respected between locksmiths IMHO.

That said, there is nothing illegal about making your own keyblanks, whatever the profile. The only illegal aspect is selling those keyblanks to third parties.

Do Not Duplicate, doesnt worry me in the slightest. People put that on keys to cofuse hardware stores
One One was a race horse, one one won one race, one two was a racehorse, one two won one too.

Disclaimer: Do not pull tag off mattress. Not responsible for legal advice while laughing.
Bilock - The Original True Bump Proof Pin Tumbler System!
globallockytoo
 
Posts: 2269
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 13:33

Re: Key Copying Legal Question

Postby Rickthepick » 24 May 2010 15:59

regarding obtaining restricted blanks...
its really not that hard if you know the right people, i have a bag full of restricted blanks of various makes that were just 'thrown away'
Rickthepick
 
Posts: 1613
Joined: 24 Sep 2009 4:15
Location: UK

Re: Key Copying Legal Question

Postby EmCee » 25 May 2010 3:55

Rickthepick wrote:regarding obtaining restricted blanks...
its really not that hard if you know the right people, i have a bag full of restricted blanks of various makes that were just 'thrown away'

Jus' rap on the door, three slow and two fast, an' ask fer rick
EmCee
 
Posts: 260
Joined: 15 Jan 2010 9:19
Location: Cambs, UK

Re: Key Copying Legal Question

Postby Rickthepick » 25 May 2010 5:40

i know a lot of companies that have closed down or gone bust and then just sold or binned whats left, all restricted keyway cylinders and blanks. Its quite suprising some of the bits that turn up ; like master key templates and space and depth keys for the restricted keyways and loads of blanks.
Its unlikely you will ever match it up with a lock but worth hanging on to anyway.

I have some Tigris master restricted blanks which will fit a number of restricted keyways in that range... again thrown away. They would make excellent bump keys if your into that kinda thing as they would fit a good portion of the locks.

You would think these things would be incinerated or disposed of carefully. :roll:
Rickthepick
 
Posts: 1613
Joined: 24 Sep 2009 4:15
Location: UK


Return to Locksmith Business Information Archive 2003-2014

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron