Letter to the Locksmith Community - reopened

by **greyman** » 26 Jun 2006 10:17

(Moderators - please refile this post where you consider most appropriate)

Sorry if I am breaching the guidelines here. I was reading the thread on "Letter to the Locksmith Community", sent by Mr Picks, and wanted to comment, but found that the thread had been locked.

I would respectfully like to add my thoughts to this thread.

Firstly, I would like to express my thanks to all the people who maintain this site. I believe it strikes the right balance and is a fantastic place for hobbyists and professionals alike. I am sorry to hear that some locksmiths or their association presidents are so narrow minded that they see a need to black list people who contribute to this forum.

I'm not a locksmith but I know quite a few. I also know enthusiasts and collectors. I think the opportunities for engaging with professional locksmiths are few and far between due to the restrictive nature of the profession. LP101 has gone a long way to bridging the gap.

Locksmithing has traditionaly been a masonic activity, passed from father to son, learned by apprenticeship and "hands on" activity. I think one of the reasons for the divide these days is that many hobbyists are coming from an IT or computer background. Many of these people are university trained and perhaps this is the reason that traditional lockies see them as a threat. Then there is the age old argument that telling people about locks and picking is bad because it helps criminals. And the counter argument that criminals already know the ins and outs and its the people who use locks to protect their property who need to be educated about what locks are about.

Ignorance is always a bad thing. Think about the dark ages, where only the church and a few select institutions held all the knowledge, and hence all the power. During this time the only locks around were warded ones, and we know how bad they were in terms of security. If I want to spend my money on a lock, then I can and will find out everything I would like to about it before I commit to a purchase. If there is a flaw, then I want to know about it.

I respect the opinion of professionals who insist that no detailed info on locks should be given to the public, but I disagree. Many great locksmiths of the past have supported the idea of telling the public about security flaws and weaknesses, even if it was by way of selling their own improved products. I'm talking about Yale, Chubb, Hobbs, Price and others. Anyone who insists that teaching the public about locks is bad should have a quick read of what past leaders of their own community had to say about it.

by **Shrub** » 26 Jun 2006 10:31

I havent been back and re-read the thread in question but i think it refers to the fact that another forum wouldnt allow members from here to be members there, fair enough thats thier perogative,

The point you made about everyone being allowed to have whatever information thaey want is not only flawed but shows serious naiveity (sp), for example safe locks and vehicles locks, who in their right minds allows the general public to learn and practice how to open those locks.

Strenghts and weeknesses do not come into it,

The reason the original thread was locked was so that this sort of argument didnt entail.

This is my personal opinion and i wil comment no further on it.

by **greyman** » 26 Jun 2006 11:45

I don't see anything wrong with having this type of debate on this forum. Bring it on

Shrub - I am not saying that all and sundry should be told details about safe locks. I did not mean this and I can clearly see that it would be a bad idea. I am just being pro-information, that is all. Most members of the general public know absolutely nothing about locks but they use them all the time and are blissfully unaware of the burglary risks.

by **Shrub** » 26 Jun 2006 11:50

Well its a fine balence between telling the public how their property can be broken into and instructing a burgular how to do it, after the event fine but while the locks or other items of security are still in use its not really making things any better,

To let the manufacturers know is a good idea and tell them what you think can and should be done to make good the problems is even better.

The bumping issue and snapping issue for example, they have been known for a long time in the trade but now the media is in on it and the public are becoming more aware theres more reports of this being the method of entry in crime incidents.

by **illusion** » 26 Jun 2006 12:50

I am only against car openings, since it's not hard for a newbie to mess their locks up, and often if they are dumb it'll be their own car. There are several threads in the past about members who have grabbed a set of jigglers and ended up some some serious shiznit because they played with something they didn't understand.

Safe opening are similar, since the cost of purchasing the equipment needed to open safes can be expensive, and in all honesty, the advanced forum doesn't exactly have a bounty of safe opening info, barring the guide that can be found on HowStuffWorks!

Why would people care about their locks? Every day I rely upon cars, and yet I have absolutely no idea how they fully work (Matrix style) I know that they work, and if something goes wrong I pay somebody wgo knows more than me to deal with it. The same would apply to locks in this respect - I know my lock is insurance rated, and that it will prevent burglars up untill a certain point. I don't care how it works, so long as it does, and if it ceases to work then I will call a locksmith who knows more than me to sort it.

We know that the site was started by hackers, and we also know the hacker mentality towards sharing information*. In the early stages people shared more info, so anybody with half a brain will go back to the 'old' days where such things can be found.

Out of cusiosity, what would you propose as an alternative idea greyman?

*If you have Firefox, right click the start page of the forum, and click "View Page Info" You'll see what I mean about hackers - or even check out the early members...

by **Raccoon** » 26 Jun 2006 16:26

I agree that telling people HOW to bypass their locks is not necessarily a good idea, but I am of the firm belief that informing the public about security weaknesses is the best thing for everyone involved.

We know that Kwikset locks are weak, and even though they protect more than 80% of US residents' homes, we're not afraid to tell it like it is.

We know that many car manufacturers use poor judgment and cheaply manufactured locking systems -- but for some reason we hesitate on "calling out" those manufacturers and informing the public about their investment (or potential investment). I feel that this forum would benefit from, not telling people specifically how to break into certain cars, but telling them these cars can be broken into a certain type of way.

The same goes for safes, and especially safes. I know that members here can identify brands of safes THEY would never buy -- safes that are inexpensive and insecure -- safes that are expensive and still insecure. Tell it like it is, and inform everyone WHY these safes are insecure and WHY they should be avoided. Nobody else will. I'm not suggesting that this forum would say "drill a 5/8ths inch hole exactly 3 inches above and 45Â° to the right of the dial center, then use a screwdriver ..." -- no. But stating "YOURSAFE brand safes are vulnerable to gate drill attacks and are not worth it when you can buy THATSAFE brand for $100 less and is fitted with cobalt ..."

Sadly, I see no discussion about cars and safes in ANY light on these forums. I'd encourage this to change within reason.

by **Shrub** » 26 Jun 2006 16:37

This car is not secure = fine and i can except that but anything like this car is unsecure because of this = bad its just not right.

With tool sites running videos on how to use slim jims etc its not going to take a brain surgeon to read this car can be opened easily with a slim jim then watch the appropreate video.

by **Raccoon** » 26 Jun 2006 16:48

Exactly. If someone is interested in persuing knowledge on breaking into cars, then they will find it regardless.

But if someone is undecided between a Ford Explorer and a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and starts to do google searches to find out anything they can about them, I think they'd be interested in an article titled "Ford Explorer locks can be opened with a paperclip". People would stop buying Ford Explorers and the Ford Motor Company will improve their locks.

Fortunately for cars, they are a dime a dozen, get replaced every few years, and are easily insured at the average cost of $12~20 grand. Safes on the other hand are a life time investment and are passed down from generation to generation for hundreds of years. Pull all stops to inform the public immediately about which safe is safer, and why -- which safe is weaker and needs to be replaced or supplimented immediately.

by **HeadHunterCEO** » 26 Jun 2006 23:45

Because keeping the Knowledge/Power scales tipped in the Locksmiths
direction assures leverage because you have what people want.
In this case its "Good Locks" or a "good safe" to use daily verbatim.
That Leverage can be used to provide a service that will generate income in the form of sales and service.
Keep the scales tipped in your direction by restricting avaiable information to the masses .
Level the playing field and that leverage is decreased dramatically.

I will answer your safe,lock,door jamb,car key questions all you want as soon as a job ticket is cut with your address on it.

Thats why it won't happen
You don't need a degree to figure that out

by **Raccoon** » 27 Jun 2006 0:13

Indeed. Cheaper locks and safes have higher margin. Quality craftsmanship has little to no margin. Good point.

by **greyman** » 27 Jun 2006 5:49

Raccoon wrote:Indeed. Cheaper locks and safes have higher margin. Quality craftsmanship has little to no margin. Good point.

Isn't that why Mosler went out of business? Their safes were so good that the customer only ever needed to buy just one. It's a shame that the laws of commerce push most people to the lower end of the market where quality and security are poor. I still think people should have the information in front of them that enables them to make an informed decision. It doesn't mean everyone has to be a locksmith, but in the past this information was just not publically available. Now it is getting more available, people are in a better position to sort the sheep out from the goats. Those who want better security can decide for themselves rather than just listen to a sales pitch.

As for cars, I don't see the problem with telling about how easy it is to open them with a pick/overlifter/slim jim etc. That is most definitely in the public's interest. The thieves already know how to get in, and it's not too hard to force a car door lock if you're not worried about damage. By my reckoning, the public's ignorance of how insecure car doors and locks were contributed to the amount of time it took the car companies to start using more secure locks and systems. For decades it was just too easy for car thieves - school kids with a bunch of try out keys etc. Good riddance to cheap car locks.

by **NKT** » 27 Jun 2006 6:39

It's not just the knowledge, but how to use it that matters. Telling someone the drill points for a Chubb Banker safe isn't going to mean anything, because there is no way they could ID the safe, get access to it, (probably) afford a drill and a stand, and even then, the actual skill involved in drilling a neat hole at the right angle in the right place means that even those with the inclination to break into one aren't going to get far.

However... they will get a lot further than if they didn't have the drill points!

There are plenty of manufacturers of safe, car and other lock tools who are happy to put a nice video up to show usage to sell more tools. That milling thing, or a Ryobi drill, are both fairly fast access to a house or cheap safe.

Bypasses are something different, however. They require nearly no skill, and they are normally fast and quiet. A bypass for a Yale rim cylinder would be a terrible thing in the UK, where many thousands of houses are protected by them, and they are easily ID'd from the road. Likewise a way to beat anything distinctive from a distance is, in my opinion, to be frowned upon.

Some small part is to make my life easier on the job, but mostly, it is because most people don't care, really. How many people even lock the front door whilst in?
That is the point of the Yale night latch and rim cylinder, after all, to be automatically protecting while you are home. Yet many doors have no deadlock, or if they do, they aren't used. But the door is still secured to a degree, so is this better or worse?

It is all shades of grey. Saying that "criminals don't pick locks" is one way to get around it, but I say "criminals who pick locks rarely get caught".

by **p1ckf1sh** » 27 Jun 2006 9:31

greyman wrote:Isn't that why Mosler went out of business? Their safes were so good that the customer only ever needed to buy just one.

Interestingly enough, this is exactly the same problem Mercedes-Benz (or Daimler-Chrysler or GCMC [*] or whatever they are called now) is having with the latest generation of their Unimog truck. Anyone who can conceivable need one (farmers, construction companies, military, firefighters, etc.) has one. You occasionally see some from the 60s modified to a camper by some hippie, and for a late 70s it is completely normal to be still in full service.

Lesson - manufacture crap, coat with marketing candy, profit.

greyman wrote:As for cars, I don't see the problem with telling about how easy it is to open them with a pick/overlifter/slim jim etc. That is most definitely in the public's interest. The thieves already know how to get in, and it's not too hard to force a car door lock if you're not worried about damage. By my reckoning, the public's ignorance of how insecure car doors and locks were contributed to the amount of time it took the car companies to start using more secure locks and systems. For decades it was just too <censored> easy for car thieves - school kids with a bunch of try out keys etc. Good riddance to cheap car locks.

I think emphasizing security in car locks and doors is pointless to some degree. There are and will always a lot of weak points on the car by design. No matter how secure the lock is, you can almost always pry and wedge the door ajar, and manipulate the inner handle with some wire. Even if the door is secure, there is always just a thin window between the thief and the desired goods. Car windows break easily, and that's also a good thing, I wouldn't want a sturdy security window, some day someone may have to pull me out of a wrecked car with doors that won't budge anymore. And, aside from that, all the car breakups are a solely monetary damage. There is no endangerment of life and limb of someone if a car is broken up (there might be is teenager steal it to drive around, but that is another story and modern electronics requiring a chip key are the norm by now, I reckon).

by **Wolfman** » 27 Jun 2006 10:29

With our specialized knowledge, we need to be carefull reguardless. People call me paranoid, and I am. My paranioa has saved my ass many-a-time and I trust it. We just need to think carefully about what someone COULD do with the knowledge. There is always a grey area, as with everything in life.

Not telling people is a very shitty way to keep something safe. Sure, it works untill they find it, then what? Then everyone knows about it and can figure a way in.

So in a way we do the world a favor. However the world remains ignorant, but thieves dont. I think some good points about providing information about the safety of locks to the public and I think we may want to consiter having a public thread that you dont have to register for that you can ask if said lock is safe. Its a thin line.

:idea:

Everyone go to your local tv stations and try to get space for public service anouncements! LOL "Is your lock safe? LP101 would like to remind you that if you can get into your house when locked out, so can everyone else" or soemthing like that, lol

Sorry for the long post. Its raining and I have nothing to do

by **horsefeathers** » 28 Jun 2006 3:40

Only personal opinion here.... but I tend to think that if we leave out cars for a minute, then most burglars probably dont sit in front of forums dissecting the info presented. They know more 'brute force' methods of entry - thru windows, kicking door panels in etc - anything for quick in and out. They know of the mica methods for yales etc and snapping cylinders. I dont believe that generally they spend any time on mortice locks, unless they are able to recognise low level 2/3 levers and have basic try out keys - mica + try out keys etc equals more 'tools' to get caught with.

This is only my generalisation of burglars. There are alot of 'professional' burglars with more techniques of entry, but I still maintain the somewhat obvious that most burglars are young men after a quick snatch of sellable stuff. Easiest and quickest way in is all they are after.

So I tend to agree that bypass methods (whilst probably known to most)should not be discussed in public. More sophisticated methods of getting thru a lock, requiring specialist tools - pin + cam kits for example - are ok I believe. All methods of entry to cars should not be discussed in public, full stop. As for safes, I dont think typical burglars are going to have the tools, time or knowledge to pick/drill these but i still think best left out of public domain.

I have added nothing new here to the discussion I know. But it is striking the right balance between offering useful information to locksmiths and keen hobbyists and helping the criminal do his job better. A bit of paranoia exists here about motives of posters, especially newbies, whose first question always begin with "bump keys - how do I make them?", and I fall into the 'always suspicious' category. As i said, I dont think many burglars read these forums anyway, but as with the recent UK snapping newspaper article, it takes just one careless reporter to gain a snippet of info and broadcast it to a far wider audience. Curiosity forms in the minds of the unscrupulous, and hey presto, another technique for burglary is learned. How can you inform the public about security vunerabilities in their locks thru newspaper articles without virtually giving the secret away about how to get past the lock?

Cars - not in public
bypass - not in public
Mortice - yes, if poster uses common sense
safes - ummmmm!

Just my opinion - another added to this post. I am no crime expert so probably a load of waffle!

Anyway I am now off to see the Royal Norfolk Show - loads of bloody sheep, cows and pigs.......how dull, but the kids love 'em!

regards