Masterkeying Lessons

[globallockytoo]

Interesting and broad discussion. The flaming helps doesnt it?

The beauty about master keying in Abloy or Bilock, is no need to worry about MACS or having multiple pins in chambers and the security of the cylinder is maintained irrespective of whether or not it is masterkeyed.

Suffice to say, that getting back on subject, some courses are wonderful and very helpful, but there are software programs that take all the complexities out of masterkeying. One of the best you will ever find is an application made by a wonderful New Zealand company called WH Software. The application, Promaster 5 can be expensive but it is truly worth every penny.

I havent heard of the CD's mentioned but I do believe that learning and perfecting the techniques yourself is the best method for evaluating masterkeying. Good luck.

[Raccoon]

Aye, I agree on that ProMaster5. The program is a bit on the complex side--intended for full contract locksmiths--and requires a lot of prep before you dig into coding (lay out your doors, locks, etc, before starting on keys) but when you get things going it is extremely straight forward and 100% versatile. Every aspect of master keying systems become clear to you once you figure out the program.

Better still, their tech support is top-notch. I'd say best in the world.

[Eyes_Only]

Ok, its been a while since I said I would start working on another master keying project but I got a chance to do at least something so I wrote up another one,

Master Key 47638
Change Key 1 69850
Change Key 2 69250
Change Key 3 69450
Change Key 4 69650

I know I was told it wasn't necessary to put master pins in every chamber but I was also told not to use too many of the same cuts in the change key as it is in the master key so I just wanted to see what happens.

I'm more than likely going to take the FB master keying course or buy a beginners book on the subject so I can get a better understanding of the basics.

[Raccoon]

Well, you definitely have the basics down. And I will agree on the sentiment that you shouldn't have "too many" master key cuts the same as the change key, for a number of good reasons.

1) Your master key should have at least 1 bitting that is shallower than any of the operating change keys. This would prevent against filing down a change key to make a master key, but this is mainly significant for restricted (hard to obtain) key blanks. A good way to achieve this is to have at least 1 bitting in the master key that is a 1 or a 2. I recommend having at least 2 of these so you can alternate between them, especially in a larger system.

2) This system has a lot of room for growth, but not necessarily in ways that will ever be needed. Unless sub-master keys are necessary, you would still be able to grow laterally on other bittings while still using fewer master pinned chambers.


Now that you've made this simple system, I'd like to see how you manage a multi-level system. Try this one for size.

GMK = A (operates all 4 doors)
MK1 = AA (operates first two doors)
MK2 = AB (operates second two doors)
CK1 = AA1 (door 1)
CK2 = AA2 (door 2)
CK3 = AB1 (door 3)
CK4 = AB2 (door 4)

[Eyes_Only]

Oooo, I was just reading about that exact set up. Give me till later to finish it off and I'll post back.

[Eyes_Only]

Ok, got it done much earlier than I thought I could. Here goes,

GMK - 45836
______________

1st MK - 23836

CK 1 - 23058
CK 2 - 23270
CK 3 - 23492
CK 4 - 23614
______________

2nd MK - 67836

CK 1 - 67058
CK 2 - 67270
CK 3 - 67492
CK 4 - 67614

Thats about it.

I felt a little uncomfortable with Change Key 1 - 3 thats linked to the 2nd Master Key because of the MACS but since so many people said before that a Schlage can take a MACS of 7 I just left it.

[Raccoon]

And while you're at it, let me provide some insight into this other system.

Master Key = 47638
Change Key 1 = 69850
Change Key 2 = 69250
Change Key 3 = 69450
Change Key 4 = 69650

The following doors will accept the following keys:

door1: 47630, 47638 (MK), 47650, 47658, 47830, 47838, 47850, 49858, 49630, 49638, 49650, 49658, 49830, 49838, 49850, 49858, 67630, 67638, 67650, 67658, 67830, 67838, 67850, 69858, 69630, 69638, 69650, 69658, 69830, 69838, 69850 (CK1), 69858. (32 keys)

door2: 47230, 47238, 47250, 47258, 47630, 47638 (MK), 47650, 47658, 49230, 49238, 49250, 49258, 49630, 49638, 49650, 49658, 67230, 67238, 67250, 67258, 67630, 67638, 67650, 67658, 69230, 69238, 69250 (CK2), 69258, 69630, 69638, 69650, 69658. (32 keys)

door3: 47430, 47438, 47450, 47458, 47630, 47638 (MK), 47650, 47658, 49430, 49438, 49450, 49458, 49630, 49638, 49650, 49658, 67430, 67438, 67450, 67458, 67630, 67638, 67650, 67658, 69430, 69438, 69450 (CK3), 69458, 69630, 69638, 69650, 69658. (32 keys)

door 4: 47630, 47638 (MK), 47650, 47658, 49630, 49638, 49650, 49658, 67630, 67638, 67650, 67658, 69630, 69638, 69650 (CK4), 69658. (16 keys)

Subtracting the fact that the MK naturally appears all 4 times, there are a total of 109 unique keys that WILL open doors in this system, when there are only 5 keys that SHOULD open doors in this system. That means there are 104 free radicals (phantom keys) to worry about. Not only that, but this makes the locks ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE easier to pick.

Consider now that you have 104 phantom keys to worry about. What happens when you try adding another lock to this system. Will you be able to prevent cross keying?

However, notice that "door 4" has much fewer combinations. Why is this?

[Eyes_Only]

Yeah I was wondering about phantom keys that could have crept into my system. Would it have been better if I held chambers 4 and 5 and just rotated chamber 3 and progress one chamber at a time as if it was a single master key system or would that be problematic for the function of the Grand Master key?

[jla]

This is something that I am learning from right now. So I am wondering if I am correct in thinking that door 4 has less phantom keys because of the fact that it shares the third pin with the master key. Therefore, it doesn't have a master pin leaving only one position that the third pin can be in to open that door.

-Justin

[aussielocky]

The beauty about master keying in Abloy or Bilock, is no need to worry about MACS or having multiple pins in chambers and the security of the cylinder is maintained irrespective of whether or not it is masterkeyed.

I would agree with you re the MACS issue sure, but not your other point, any additional key that fits a particular cylinder - whatever the mechansim, Abloy, Bilock, Evva, 6 pin inline etc will reduce the security offered by that product. And the drop off in security increases exponentially (sp) with each additional key / level of complexity if the system.

[Eyes_Only]

I don't know too well about literature on master keying offered out there but I was considering the book "Basic Master Keying - QBE" by Don O'Shall and John Truempy offered here, http://www.lounginglizardpublishing.com/lizard.htm . Right now it's either this book or the FB master keying course I'm thinking of taking.

[globallockytoo]

The beauty about master keying in Abloy or Bilock, is no need to worry about MACS or having multiple pins in chambers and the security of the cylinder is maintained irrespective of whether or not it is masterkeyed.

I would agree with you re the MACS issue sure, but not your other point, any additional key that fits a particular cylinder - whatever the mechansim, Abloy, Bilock, Evva, 6 pin inline etc will reduce the security offered by that product. And the drop off in security increases exponentially (sp) with each additional key / level of complexity if the system.

Whilst I understand and support your point of view about reducing "perceived" levels of security (because of the increased number of shearlines), In Bilock and Abloy, the security is equal in all instances, whether masterkeyed or not. It is still a requirement to manipulate all the tumblers or discs equally as opposed to conventional pin tumbler masterkeying where the ability to manipulate the tumblers requires less skill and application, in my oipinion.

[freakparade3]

Eyes_Only did you ever take the FB masterkey course? If so what did you think of it?

[Eyes_Only]

I actually never took it. I bought the book "Master Keying QBE" instead and have been very happy with it. It describes the different progression methods for basic master keying and it contains information that I was exactly looking for.

But as far as how I've progressed in my personal study of master keying....it kinda came to a stall. At my shop I mostly have the responsibility of handling vehicle and home lockout calls and rarely ever get to do any commercial or even residential locksmith work for the moment so I've been focusing on being a better lockout technician than a real locksmith. Although I do get to go re-key small busniness when we get the call so it's still ok.

We're in the process of rearranging and restructuring our shop and the kind of work we do so until then I'll have to wait and be patient.

[freakparade3]

I'm gonna be taking the FB course soon, I'll let ya'll know hot it is.