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This lock definitely cant be picked conventionally!

This is the old Locksmith business info area and will be broken down to fill in the new sections below.

Postby Servalite6354 » 8 Nov 2007 21:34

jedidove wrote:If anything I trust things like this even less than mechanical locks.
....electronics are the opposite. Hacking is in. The youth of this age are pervaded by it. Plus there all good at it and it doesn't take much time to learn. There is something about it that draws so many, especially younger, people.


I agree. To me, the more complex a system is, the less reliable and consequently, the less secure it is. The more parts there are that have to work together just leave more openings for manipulation.
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Postby jacknife » 5 Jan 2008 11:31

dang...intresting concept
<sig removed due to suze>
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Postby DPTR » 13 Jan 2008 13:45

jedidove wrote:
That being said, electronics are the opposite. Hacking is in. The youth of this age are pervaded by it. Plus there all good at it and it doesn't take much time to learn. There is something about it that draws so many, especially younger, people. I say this from experience, I am young and most certainly drawn to the hacking world. I have performed my few little tricks (though never maliciously) and although they aren't on the same level as true hackers, I feel the urge they feel and know why they do it.


You're not talking about hacking. The kind of technology manipulation that usually causes harm/damage and "doesn't take much time to learn" is not hacking at all. The correct term is Cracking, and crackers are not supported in the hacking community. They are looked down upon and are made fun of because of their lack of skill. Anyone can download a keylogger and send it to someone – but hacking their server that holds their password takes time, effort, and skill (unless the server is poorly protected).

Any experienced hacker would tell you that it takes years to develop a true understanding of their craft. And at the rate that technology evolves, they must constantly study for new additions. Dedicated hackers tend to have engineering degrees, or at the least have taken classes in network security. Some of the best are self taught, through trial and error and operating manuals.

jedidove wrote:No hacker feels accomplished breaking their own security and they don't set up security to try and break it. They target the security of others.


Of course not, because anyone who puts into place a security measure will likely know it's flaws and weaknesses. When you put a lock on your door/bike/ect chances are you know exactly how secure it is and given time could pick it yourself. Wouldn't you be more interested in how long it would take for another skilled picker to enter? The same is true for hackers. You may ask a hacker friend to test your security, you feel accomplished when they have trouble bypassing the measures you've put into place. They may glide right past them, challenging you to put into place more secure measures, to be tested at another time. Pride and accomplishment can both come from this.

jedidove wrote:There are "white hat" hackers but most hackers are "black hats". When some kid sees a new invention like this it will be hacked sooner than the first lockie attempted to slide a pick into a medeco. Look what happened to the iPhone.


This is so very very wrong. White Hat hackers significantly outnumber black hats. To say that someone who disassembles and discovers flaws in a system is a black hat hacker is a misnomer. Any open source software (like linux for example) is developed and maintained by a "hacker" community. Their discoveries in system performance and security flaws leads to better, more secure versions of the software. These people selflessly volunteer their time toward this cause, and to call them Black Hat is an insult.

Any black hat hacker, manipulates technology for only their benefit. They're not the sharing type, and communities of black hat hackers are scarce.

Don't forget, that picking locks is nothing more then physical hacking.

But back on subject- this concept was actually posted on a hacker blog about a year ago. It did not use a knocking device, but instead a standard knuckle knock. The primary security flaw for that concept was that it had to be hard wired to the house for powersupply. Proper manipulation of these wires provided entry.

The knocker is too big, and I feel that it's no more secure then the standard keypad. Anyone with a scope can watch you push in your code (especially if the pad is that large), then come up with their own "knocker" and enter.
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Postby globallockytoo » 13 Jan 2008 14:18

DPTR wrote:
The knocker is too big, and I feel that it's no more secure then the standard keypad. Anyone with a scope can watch you push in your code (especially if the pad is that large), then come up with their own "knocker" and enter.



The knocker unit fits into the small of the palm of your hand. It is designed lightweight to fit on your keyring. Each time your pincode is entered the unit on the door recognizes the RFID tag (or whatever) and changes the code appropriately. The hand held (key) then enters the new random code to activate the lock.

I dont see the benefit in someone spying the code from afar when there are other elements required for covert bypass.
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Postby DPTR » 13 Jan 2008 15:51

globallockytoo wrote:
DPTR wrote:
The knocker is too big, and I feel that it's no more secure then the standard keypad. Anyone with a scope can watch you push in your code (especially if the pad is that large), then come up with their own "knocker" and enter.



The knocker unit fits into the small of the palm of your hand. It is designed lightweight to fit on your keyring. Each time your pincode is entered the unit on the door recognizes the RFID tag (or whatever) and changes the code appropriately. The hand held (key) then enters the new random code to activate the lock.

I dont see the benefit in someone spying the code from afar when there are other elements required for covert bypass.


I should have been more specific - I meant the knocker key pad (Mounted Keypad – Model MK202 ). The only advantage I can see to that is that no wiring is required. But it runs on a "123A Lithium Battery" that could die leaving the user locked outside (unless precautions were put into place not available for public view). It also appears to be mounted via two unprotected screws making it prone to tampering, or complete removal (also leaving you locked outside). If something was to happen (malfunction, malicious attack, ect) there would be no practical way of entering other then by force.
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Postby dougfarre » 13 Jan 2008 17:42

DPTR: Chill with the Hacker/Cracker lecturing, thats like the last thing most of us want to hear about.

Anyways, the knocker keypad should be treated just like a key would be treated. If you mess up your key, then your lock is no longer going to open. The whole point of having a lock is that only the person with the key should be able to enter! If the knocker malfunctions, its a shoty product. But malicious attack? Who is going to be maliciously attacking your knocker? I mean, if someone gets a hold of your knocker then its just like somone getting a hold of your key.

Also i don't understand what you are saying about removing the locking mechanism and then being locked out. If you remove the locking mechanism then there will no longer be a locking mechanism! You wont be locked out, because the lock wont even be there anymore!

Also, you said what if someone maliciously attacked the locking mechanism then you would be screwed right? Well what if someone maliciously attacked your regular locks locking mechanism! There is no difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby DPTR » 13 Jan 2008 17:59

dougfarre wrote:DPTR: Chill with the Hacker/Cracker lecturing, thats like the last thing most of us want to hear about.


Sorry, that just struck a personal nerve. I'll try to be more restrained in the future.

dougfarre wrote:Anyways, the knocker keypad should be treated just like a key would be treated. If you mess up your key, then your lock is no longer going to open. The whole point of having a lock is that only the person with the key should be able to enter! If the knocker malfunctions, its a shoty product. But malicious attack? Who is going to be maliciously attacking your knocker? I mean, if someone gets a hold of your knocker then its just like somone getting a hold of your key.


Actually it's a bit different. If someone removes the keypad it's like filling a keyhole with epoxy. The lock is still there, but there's no way to unlock it.

dougfarre wrote:Also i don't understand what you are saying about removing the locking mechanism and then being locked out. If you remove the locking mechanism then there will no longer be a locking mechanism! You wont be locked out, because the lock wont even be there anymore!

Also, you said what if someone maliciously attacked the locking mechanism then you would be screwed right? Well what if someone maliciously attacked your regular locks locking mechanism! There is no difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I never mentioned removing the mechanics, only the knocker. The knocker tells the mechanics to unlock. Without the knocker the mechanics will still be there, keeping the door locked and you're left with no way of unlocking it.

Do you understand? Don't take my post so personally. lol :)
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Postby globallockytoo » 13 Jan 2008 20:51

The mounted keypad....possibly.

They could look at a biometric code pad. This eliminates the spying the code problem of a mounted unit.


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Postby dougfarre » 14 Jan 2008 10:00

I guess I didnt realize there was a mounted knocker unit. I was asuming all knocker units were portable. But still, it wouln't make sense for somone to remove the mounted keypad to purposely lock somone out. It would be similar to sabatoging the keyway on a mechanicle lock to lock somone out. It carrys the same risks.
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Postby JB0311NY » 14 Jan 2008 11:16

Wow, really interesting lock... I like the design.
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