Interesting article about the good / bad of being registered

[Engineer]

Only a short article, but it seems to present both the good and bad sides of requiring registration of locksmiths ina balanced way.

http://www.wpcva.com/articles/2009/02/23/chatham/news/news36.txt

[Safecrackin Sammy]

I live in Virginia where that law took effect last fall and its a joke... A money maker for the govt.. Registration, fingerprints, documentation, etc. all just to add to the tax coffers. The money doesnt matter to me since its paid for by my company but it can be a burden for a small business owner.

The same thing was done in Va years ago for alarm installers... Had to have mandatory classroom training but there was none available yet. Most alarm installers had to sit thru "armed guard" training just to say they had been to a class.

Name one electrician, carpenter, or plumber that has to have an ID badge and fingerprints on file with the state to do his job.

All the state needed to do was to enforce the laws that were already on the books.

[locfoc]

Locksmithing is a lethal trade. we can open any safe, vault, car, lock, locker, home, business, door, etc. As a legal practitioner our finger prints should be on file and we should be licensed, bonded, insured and certified above all to prove we have the skills to get the job done right. Would you go to an unlicensed doctor and take the drugs he gives you? I wouldn't.... The same idea is applied to our trade, why would you higher an unlicensed locksmith with no proof of his skill or trade, this industry is about appearances and trust. Being government licensed and bonded means you can be trusted by the general public.

Also what about liability? your customer gets broken into a few days after you install a new lock and you are unlicensed and untrusted in the situation. What happens then? you have no liability insurance, no license, no bonding to cover you as a legal tradesman.

[Engineer]

Hi locfoc,

What you say are all VERY valid points and just what I would have said not long ago. However, I find I cannot believe in that anymore and agree with Safecrackin Sammy now.

What you say is all true, no-one in their right minds could disagree with you, but the problem seems to have come with it not being implimented the way you would think.

I've been hearing from a few Locksmiths in different places where schemes like this have been introduced and all have been against it, other than your good self.

Their reasons have been that it is VERY expensive to register, far more so than you would have thought. The family 'smiths who generally have been in the business for years and are the good honest ones who charge their customers only fair prices; are feeling pushed out of the business by having to find such a large amount every year. Either they go out of business, or pass on the charges to their customers in increased prices.

The public might be happy to pay a little more for the added protection registration gives them, but is it actually protecting anyone? What has been said to me; is that since it is only a "registration" process, anyone who pays the hundreds of Dollars, is registered to trade as a Locksmith. The public are no more protected now than before, so are paying extra for nothing at all. Even worse, the real rip-off traders can easily afford the registration fee as they are usually over-charging people to begin with.

What are all of these hundreds of Dollars per trader, per year, being used for? If it is to protect the public, where in the city finances is the money being passed to the Police and/or "Standards Officers"-type people (where they exist)? It is the jobs of these people to protect the public from rogue traders already and that is what everyone is paying their taxes for in the first place. If registration is required, then you are saying that your current staff are failing in their duties to protect the public? Current legislation should be enough to ensure the public are protected from rogue traders.

The resentment against these new schemes, seems to be that they are not about proving you are adequately trained to do your job well, but more about just raising money from the honest businesses who are already in a recession. The unscrupulous ones either have more money, or just don't bother with registration anyway and trade illegally.

I have also been told there are some who try to get around the laws by trading as a "handyman" and fit the locks that way.

DISCLAIMER: I am lucky, I live in the UK where we do not things quite so bad. So I have no personal axe to grind here, I am just saddened at what I have been told by other Locksmiths about what they are having to put up with.

[5thcorps]

Amen engineer, the government has to stick its nose into everything to make a few bucks and push out the little guys who are usually notoriously honest. I call that kind of thing uh................ yeah! Communism!

[locfoc]

Well when you don't have licensing and registered locksmiths what you get is more companies like the fraud ones showing up all over the world right now in places where licensing is not enforced. So you get fake locksmiths ripping people off and making us look bad. Just like criminals make you look bad. It is the same concept and one I know you can agree with. With proper enforcement of licensing and registration of shops it can be possible to shut down every fake locksmith out there that rips people off.

I do pay the licensing fee for my business, and for the personal licenses, it's not that much money and I would rather have one then not. Like I said, at this point it's the only difference between a fake rip off artist criminal pretending to be a locksmith and a real locksmith. I know you know about the problem we've all been having with the negative media attention because of these people, and this is a solution.

Also yes, I do agree that the licensing can be implemented differently, but the world needs to turn, and everybody needs to get their greedy fingers in your pocket, especially the government. It's part of running a legit business.

[locfoc]

I also wanted to add to this that with proper licensing there are less locksmith companies that will survive, because the fake locksmiths probably have criminal records and no journeyman they won't pass for a business security license (in my province). So that means that the little guy you are talking about will have a lot more business because he will have a lot less competition. He would actually make a ton more money because of the license being enforced because it would drive half his competition away from that state or province.

[Engineer]

Thank you 5thcorps.

Locfoc, again you raise interesting points. I would like to say that I am NOT saying any way is right, or better than anyone elses', these are just my own personal thoughts on why (to my own suprise) I found my opinions have changed from supporting registration, to being against registration (at least in the forms it seems to be being brought in now).

I think perhaps you and I are the lucky ones. I because we have very little regulation here and you, because although you do have registration, it seems to be done well and fair where you are. I do see what you mean about registration driving out the cowboys, leaving more trade for the proper locksmiths. However, for many, the very opposite is what seems to be happening. One figure I have been told is $600 per year. That is a lot of money to a lot of family locksmith businesses. What seems to be happening in practise is that the cowboys are overcharging people anyway, so they can easily afford the money. The authorities are just issuing the licences to anyone who pays the money, so only the fair traders are hit very hard.

That seems to be the problem, they money is just being taken and licenses issued not on the basis of skill and professionalism, but on the basis of ability to pay. In effect, the registration process is in danger of becoming just buying a license to trade and nothing at all to do with the quality of your work.

The public will soon realise that displaying one of these registration symbols is not gurantee of quality workmanship at all and is no better off for reliabilty or trustworthness, just everyone is paying more.

If the only consideration is to protect the public from rogue traders, then what more does this expensive process do each year, that should not already be part of the duties of the Police and Trading Standards/Better Business Bureau? I feel there is still a place for a simple list of registered locksmiths. This would be basic details and perhaps cost $40 a year to be registered on. The main purpose of the register is simply for the Police and City to know who and where all those people with such specialist knowledge are. This might already be covered by membership in some countries' professional bodies - Such as ALOA in America. A scheme perhaps similar to a register of firearms in many countries? Nothing more than that.

These are just my own personal opinions on the situation and do not represent the offical opinion of LP101 or anyone else of course, just me...

I am grateful that the closest we come to registration in the UK is for tax purposes and needing to show Police records when working on places where you may come into contact with vulnerable people, like schools, hospitals, old people's homes, etc.

I apologise also, but I realised after posting before, that I had not explained where you said "Locksmithing is a lethal trade...". That might confuse some people, possibly in other countries. I think I know what you mean though? In some countries, you are hired as the locksmith to fit locks in an office block for example, where it is the responsibilty of the LOCKSMITH to ensure that the fire safety exits for example are fitted with the correct emergency exit bars, etc. If you do not fit the right equipment and someone were to die or be injured in a fire, then you are in trouble as your insurance company is facing paying out a great deal of money, or you are. Not knowing your trade can be responsible for the deaths of people.

[locfoc]

I guess it's just the process in my province here in Canada is different then yours. In order to get a locksmith journeyman license you need to apprentice for a minimum of 2-3 years under a real licensed locksmith, then they vouch for you to get your license. Once you have your journeyman license you can apply for your own business security license to work as a locksmith with your own company... Not just any yahoo off the street can apply for a business security license, they need at least 1 employee holding a valid journeyman license. It is different here, the problem is the government isn't strict enough on the people who operate without licenses here, that's the problem. We all pay our taxes and licensing fee's like we're supposed to, and the guys that don't, nobody does anything about. So .. I can see your point, and it pisses me off to see the system working the way it does.

[Engineer]

I agree entirely locfoc and I think many 'smiths would also. The suspicion amongst many being affected by the new rules is that it is just being done to raise money, not actually protect them or the public.

Despite there being such light regulation in the UK, we don't have that many problems thankfully. There are the odd one of course, there always will be I suppose.

Thank you for the insight into how it works in Canada, it sounds like you have a good system there.

[locfoc]

Yes, and the biggest reason which I failed to mention is High Security Locks. If you want to become a dealer for medeco, abloy, assa or mul-t-lock you are required to have a locksmith business license or they will not sign you up as a dealer. Those are the biggest high security systems we sell over here that's why I mentioned them. If you want to get into the game you have to play the game.

And if a locksmith doesn't offer high security products then whats the point of being a locksmith? We know better than anyone how insecure regular systems are, they don't work. Regular locks like weiser, schlage, yale, corbin russwin, dexter, kwikset, etc, all offer a false sense of security. And it's poppy _ that these companies continue to make horrible products and push it on to consumers.

[Engineer]

Yes indeed, it's one of the ways the UK has of keeping out the cowboys. Trade accounts often require a business referance and a bank referance as a MINIMUM to be able to buy them. This limits the damage done by the few cowboys, to only the simpler types of locks and usually to only homeowners. Businesses requiring more sophisticated locks, don't usually get ripped off that way.

Some of the really bad cowboys simply buy the locks retail, or even second-hand and fit them that way. If they are buying retail though, it means they have to charge such very high prices, that most people will not use them, simply because they are uncompetitive. Again they will always be able to persuade some to use their services, but then tey also have to be part confidence trickster to persuade people to part with their money. Generally this all makes it such hard work, that the cowboys go elsewhere where it is easier to make money from "trades" like plumbing, general building work (contractors), etc.

[Engineer]

Strange co-incidences often plague me...

Today while looking for something else instead, I came across this article about even where you do have registration (New York) in this case, you can still face problems and it seems to be a variation of the "Yellow Pages" trick.

http://dansdata.blogsome.com/2009/03/12/scams-glorious-scams/

[mongo]

I live in Ontario, we don't have registration for lockies. I went to the trade Ministry last year to inquire while I was starting my Belsaw crse. It appears the 'our' industry has not been proactive enough. This is a huge under taking to accomplish this task correctly. An Occupational Analysis would have to be created. This OA would then need to be agreed by a majority of industry professionals. It is then broken down into sub-sub sections. Detailed as far as you want. From who can be an apprentice: ie High School Diploma all the way to the master lockie who can open safes with a wave of the hand.
Then we have to determine the security aspect. Lockies go in some pretty secure areas to fix safes, filing cabinets and the like. Does having a smithy course and a license give you privileged access, I think not. But it is implied.
So we now have a setout OA. Who is the governing body, who monitors the exam content, will we need a school. The trades home for excellence and standards. Licensing of trades is a societies basic safety mechanism, underwritten by that industry. The license is only proof that you have Challenged the Competencies of the stated trade and have passed the exam. It does not say your any good or honest, just that you passed. If our industry was to form a solidarity and complete an OA we would at least have the ability to police itself. Registering my business was done on the computer and cost me 50 bucks, I printed the license. I could have called myself a locksmith or any other trade that has no regulation within itself. Who will stop me?
To sum up my rant:
Licensing, Certification, Trade education and confirmation can only be done by that industry. Without it we remain bystanders.

[locfoc]

That sucks, alberta and british columbia are different.

But you said "you can be licensed but it doesn't mean you're any good or honset"
Well that goes with every trade out there, look at the shitty contractors that fix homes and suck. or bad plumbers and electricians. It's up to the consumer to ask the right questions to see the level of knowledge a trade person has. And then again, if the locksmith is going to do a rekey you don't have to ask a lot of questions other then "whats the price" and maybe "can I get my keys stamped please".


It is true that this trade is not on anyones priority list, but once we are recognized two things will happen, the government will take advantage of us and charge us a lot of money for licensing & our prices will sky rocket and our customers will have to pay a lot of money for services.

See it's so different from bc to the states and our prices, on clearstar I hear some people do jobs for $35USD for an open up. thats $45 CAD in current currency trade. That's what we mobile locksmiths charge for our service call as a minimum up here. The cheapest open up in vancouver you can get is $75 from any decent company, including my own.

There are lots of companies out there charging $65-$75 service call and $75-$85 per hour labour right now in our city, and these are becoming the standard prices for our 5 interconnected cities. So it's getting a bit crazy already, I can't imagine what will happen when the government pushes the new law. They are talking about removing the "standard keyway do not copy stamps" law. Because they know just about anyone can cut the keys, once that happens the only real security for key control people will have is high security locks. Which holds mostly true right now anyway, so the government might as well help us out. But they are also thinking of changing the licensing fee's to $10,000 a year per shop. something like electricians have to pay for their business licenses. I feel sorry for the poor sap that calls me if that ever happens, he will have to max out two of his credit cards to pay my bill.