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Anti pick keyway

TOSL Project. A community project to "build a better mousetrap".

Anti pick keyway

Postby fgarci03 » 12 Feb 2013 22:27

Hey!
As for my 100th post, I'd like to contribute a little to this project!

First of all, this is just a first sketch. I though about this a couple of days ago and I still haven't trimmed the edges. I'll just share it so you all can tell me if it is a viable project, and then, if it is, I'll get into details (protection against destructive techniques, etc).

And the images where edited with MSPaint. Again, this is just to illustrate my idea. Later I'll have a friend (who is a designer) that will help me to make a good work.

So, my (hard to pick) lock is based on a restrictive keyway. When I'm picking Dimples, the stuff that bugs me the most are these edges (it doesn't necessarily make picking harder, but it annoys me):
Image

So what I thought was to extend the edges and make walls instead. All the way in the lock. So it would be something like this:
Image

And the key would have cuts like this:
Image

This key isn't for this lock, and the cuts aren't aligned with the keway. Again, it's just a demonstration.
But the point is, a lock with bottom and upper pins with a keyway that restricted. It would make very difficult (I don't want to say impossible because I don't think there are absolutely unpickable locks) for merely insert a pick in there. For actual picking, would be a real nightmare.. Even with very slim picks, it would be impossible not to overset a pin by reaching to the one behind. That combined with serrated pins (and maybe serrated key pins also) would do the trick.

It can of course be combined with side pins, or side bar, or whatever improvements we may think of. But the main point is to make a keyway so restricted that a pick wouldn't even fit in there, and if it did, wouldn't be able to manipulate the pins.
I would have to be able to design a key with cuts on it's lenght that would be resistant enough not to bend easily, but I think I made my point.

Is this idea worth improvement (so I can think in anti-bump stuff, anti-drill plate, and other protections for it)? Or am I missing something important that would allow it to be picked?

Summarizing the hole idea:
1. Make a keyway so restricted that it would be virtually impossible just to insert a pick in there (even a custom one), and succefully set the pins
2. To outcome the "virtually impossible" barrier, add other layers of security like serrated pins (upper and key pins), or sidebars, or any other
3. Make it cheap enough so it can be used by anyone, not just government and rich folks :lol:
4. After that being accomplished, add layers of physical security to prevent bypasses and destructive entry

Thank you!
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
- GWiens2001
fgarci03
 
Posts: 1009
Joined: 18 Dec 2012 21:38
Location: Porto/Portugal

Re: Anti pick keyway

Postby vov35 » 12 Feb 2013 22:42

I guess it would require a very thin pick to reach in between the two walls and pick it like a normal pin tumbler.

I would also be concerned about the key becoming very fragile as a result of such a design.
The BiLock isn't the first bump proof pin tumbler because it isn't a pin tumbler.
And it's called a shear line, not a "sheerline".
vov35
 
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Joined: 29 Sep 2010 15:13

Re: Anti pick keyway

Postby fgarci03 » 12 Feb 2013 22:53

vov35 wrote:I would also be concerned about the key becoming very fragile as a result of such a design.

Yes, I would have to outcome that problem!


As for the thin pick. It would be needed somethng like an L shapped pick (like regular dimple picks, but thiner and smaller. If, for example, (i'll use random measures for the sake of explaining this) the lengh between the walls would be 5mm, and at least one of the pins had to be set deeper than that (6mm for example), wouldn't it be impossible to do so? If the biggest tool we could shove in there is not big enough to set one of the pins, will it be considered unpickable?
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
- GWiens2001
fgarci03
 
Posts: 1009
Joined: 18 Dec 2012 21:38
Location: Porto/Portugal

Re: Anti pick keyway

Postby zeepia » 12 Feb 2013 23:37

Take a look at Abloy Protec keyway, that´s as close to your design as it gets. The key isn´t in two parts but there is very narrow piece between the two cut parts of the key. Lame description but search that keyway from net and you´ll understand, there isn´t so much space to manipulate.
zeepia
 
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Location: Forest in Finland

Re: Anti pick keyway

Postby mh » 13 Feb 2013 0:28

Hi

A very creative idea!

I think with walls instead of wards, the one problem will be mechanical strength of the key.
You want high pin / low pin combinations for the effect that a correctly set high pin shields off the rest, but that high pin also takes away nearly all of the material of the key and makes it extremely fragile.

Cheers
mh
"The techs discovered that German locks were particularly difficult" - Robert Wallace, H. Keith Melton w. Henry R. Schlesinger, Spycraft: The secret history of the CIA's spytechs from communism to Al-Qaeda (New York: Dutton, 2008), p. 210
Image
mh
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Re: Anti pick keyway

Postby ktech » 6 May 2013 16:37

While that design would indeed make it difficult to pick with conventional picks, wouldn't it just be possible to just use a slim ball pick or something similar?
B (person/group) is so X (pejorative attribute) that P (absurd proposition).
ktech
 
Posts: 8
Joined: 26 Apr 2013 14:15
Location: In Secure Location

Re: Anti pick keyway

Postby fgarci03 » 6 May 2013 17:58

Not without a Sputnik.

The whole idea is based on the depth of the pin setting low after a high pin be greater than the distance of the walls of the keyway.

For example, if you set the high pin in a place, and then the low pin after it, and the differencehight between those pins is 4mm for example. It would be "unpickable" because you could not insert a pick there without disturbing the previously set pin (because the walls of the keyway are just 3mm appart for example).

It's kinda hard to explain, and I've come to realize it would be very hard to achieve...
Go ahead, keep plugging away, picking on me! You will end up on bypass or with rigor mortise.
- GWiens2001
fgarci03
 
Posts: 1009
Joined: 18 Dec 2012 21:38
Location: Porto/Portugal

Re: Anti pick keyway

Postby ARF-GEF » 7 May 2013 11:31

I too think it's an excellent idea, but the key would be infeasibly fragile. Especially with bigger differences in biting which would be necessary for a high security lock's many variable combinations.

And my warmest congratulations on the 100th post Fgarci! :)
:D :D
To infinity... and beyond!
ARF-GEF
 
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Joined: 26 Oct 2012 11:14
Location: faraway and mythical land of eastern europe:)


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