Squire & Sons Padlock (GB2103706)

by **awm** » 25 Jan 2004 22:01

Hi board,

First time posting. My name's Adrian and while I've had an interest in lockpicking for some time, I've only just aquired a small set of (Unfortunately American) picks. I'm from the UK.

I've got myself a practice padlock and I'm having a few problems with it. It's a slightly old (I belive circa 1983, according to patent registration) 4 pin tumbler design from Squire & Sons. The cylinder of the lock is independant of the body and it wiggles alot and has a little movement when applying tension. [If you'd like to see exactly what padlock it is, patent and diagram is here: http://l2.espacenet.com/espacenet/bnsvi ... 03706A++I+ :: it's a PDF though, so hopfully you'll have some kung-fu grip, Acrobat action going on.]

I can't seem to set any of the pins in the lock, I'm not sure if it has any special drivers (Shrooms and spools in '83?) but no amount of variation in tension is getting the bleeders to set. Trying just the first, most visible pin in an attempt to set just one proves fruitless too.

I gave up on my front and back door locks, they don't have a brand on them, but I'm pretty sure they've got some magic drivers. 5pin, even harder to set. Not to mention the fact I think the cylinder has to be turned farther than 180 degrees. (which will mean picking it twice?)

Are these padlocks particularly harder to pick, should I get a new practice lock or should I not give up on it and just try to practice regardless of lack of success?

Thanks in advance (and nice board too, btw).

A.W.M.

by **marso** » 25 Jan 2004 22:15

First of all I would like to welcome you to LP101 and hope you enjoy the stay.

cylinder has to be turned farther than 180 degrees. (which will mean picking it twice?)

No you do not have to pick twice, you just have to watch that the top pins do not fall in the bottom of the keyway. But when I pick I hear the click turn slightly (15 degree or so) and then lock it, and try again. It is at that point you know you have it, you do not have to go the whole way.

The padlock you have, they may have changed the design since etc.. But either way quin posted a list of easy to pick locks in england (if you go to the european lock thread). I would suggest get one of them. It is a bit hard to know where you are up to if you have not picked anything before. I would normally suggest you keep at it and use light torque. Also try to think about what the lock is doing while you are picking this has been so much help to me.

by **CitySpider** » 25 Jan 2004 22:19

Unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with that lock, but I wanted to compliment you on a wonderful post anyway.

by **Chucklz** » 25 Jan 2004 22:59

For everyone, if your dealing with a lock that was made after oh say 1950 (or rekeyed after around there) you may find security pins, unless of course you know that a particular make/model of non rekeyable padlock does not contain them.

by **awm** » 25 Jan 2004 23:10

Hey Marso, Spider. Thanks for the warm welcomes. Thanks for the fast replies too -- only popped off for a coffee and some more attempting of this lock and 2 replies already.

I have a feeling this particular lock is moderately secure for a padlock. I filched it from my old-man the other day, apparently he used to use it to lock up RAF gear. It's a pretty hefty thing too. It's got a nice weight and size, makes it pretty good to hold whilst picking.

marso: No you do not have to pick twice, you just have to watch that the top pins do not fall in the bottom of the keyway.

That's kind of what I was afraid of too. Last thing I want to do is ruin the thing.... Although.... If I did, it would make a brilliant excuse to take it out of the door, get a new one, and take the old one apart. I'll have to remember that.

marso: The padlock you have, they may have changed the design since. ... I would normally suggest you keep at it and use light torque. Also try to think about what the lock is doing while you are picking this has been so much help to me

Last piece of advice taken to heart. I'm trying to do this as I'm attempting to pick too. I think it's giving aid to my sense of feel for the pins.

Torque might be part of the problem. I'm not sure whether it's by design or not (anti-picking?) but as I apply a little force on the end of the wrench the cylinder in the lock turns slightly too. It's giving a slightly skewed sense of how much torque is really working. I'm sitting here with it in my hand, and if I put the wrench in and twist slightly clockwise, the whole tumbler "cylinder" assembly moves left inside the case a millimetre or so. This is what is kind of skewing the feeling for torque. Only slight force will move the assembly; using MORE force, while allowing the cylinder to rotate a miniscule amount, also causes me to bind both driver and pin in the keyway. My problem is probably finding the right-spot for pressure, somewhere inbetween. It's kind of hard to guage.

CitySpider: Unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with that lock, but I wanted to compliment you on a wonderful post anyway.

Thanks for the compliment mate. Flattery will assure my overlooking your complete UNABASHED IGNORANCE of this lock... (Nudge nudge)

Jokes aside, if these kinds of responses are the norm around here, I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy this board.

Thanks again guys.

A.W.M

by **awm** » 25 Jan 2004 23:22

Hiya Chucklz.

Chucklz: For everyone, if your dealing with a lock that was made after oh say 1950 (or rekeyed after around there) you may find security pins, unless of course you know that a particular make/model of non rekeyable padlock does not contain them.

I'm not sure if this one is rekeyable ... Looking at it I wouldn't say so. It's made up of wafers of brass, which have bars or rivots keeping them all together (and keeping the mechanism inside). If rekeying involves reorganising the pins themselves, then you'd have to destroy this lock first. There's no taking it apart. Well, there isn't if you want to put it back together again afterwards.

But it was made after 1950. Unless these guys have a patent for time machines too, the lock itself was only patented in 1981-1982, so it's definately less than 20 year old. So it could contain some.

Useful piece of info too, thanks. I'll be keeping that in mind.

A.W.M

by **Chris** » 26 Jan 2004 7:22

Hi awm,

If your lock's worn and the plug is loose, it could be that drivers are trying to set on the front / back of the plug pin holes (instead of the sides) and are then unsetting when the front to back movement (in engineering terms aka "end float") allows the plug to shift slightly forward or back. Try using your torsion wrench to keep the plug at one limit of its front to back travel. It might not solve the problem, but it will help to stabilise the situation inside the lock, and will control a variable which might not be helping the situation. Also, move the plug to one end of its "end float", put the flat edge of your pick against all the pins, push up as far as you can, and apply a lot of torque. Remove the pick, gently ease back on the torque, and listen for the sound of pins dropping. This will indicate whether the pins will actually set high - if they don't, then move the plug to the other end of its "end float" and do it again. When you hear pins dropping, you know you've got the plug in a good place to start from. If all else fails and you've got a key, it might be time to give yourself a fighting chance by cheating a little. :cry:

Examine the key and see how high each pin should be setting. If you place the key flat against the keyway, you can give yourself a guide by comparing the depth of the key's serrations to the keyway itself. :wink:

by **jason** » 30 Jan 2004 15:11

With a wiggly cylinder, you've given yourself a problem before you start.

At risk of upsetting the rest of the group (just wait to see the posts when they see I've posted this!) squirt a bit of WD 40 in. This should make the lock easier to pick open - I wouldn't recommend it on an entrance door lock, but if you're just practising it's not the end of the world.

BTW I hit one of these the other day (executing a warrant) (just wait til Varjeal sees this) - I used bolt croppers.

Even locksmiths cheat (probably better not to admit it here though)

And don't have a downer on American picks, for cylinders I use Majestic and HPCs stainless steel picks.

Lever picks though I'll use Souber's wires and RB Medical Engineerings picks

Have fun - I use my hobby to make money (can't get better than that!)

by **CitySpider** » 31 Jan 2004 3:33

Wow, can't believe I missed this.

Master padlocks (the standard over here) have cylinders that float a little. With them, at least, it's just a matter of getting used to it. Not really a big deal after you do.

by **jason** » 31 Jan 2004 7:38

A little wiggle isn't a problem, the engineering tolerances are what help us to compromise locks in the first place. A very loose cylinder however is a different thing all together and for a novice it can be frustrating and might put them off.

Remember we were all beginners once, and remember the first time your practice lock clicked open?

by **awm** » 4 Feb 2004 19:50

Been a bit busy so I've had little time to come back to the board. But...

Hey Chris.

Thanks for that tip, I've angled my wrench slightly while I'm turning it and it seems to keep the cylinder in one spot. I've managed to set a couple of the pins (1+3) but the rest are still avoiding setting. I think with a fair bit more practice it should give in.

Unfortunately, I can't cheat a bit and look at the key - I don't have it. I was thinking about that too, but, no key

Jason, I'm not sure that I'm going to need to lubricate anything. The lock seems to be oiled already. When I put a pick in the lock and just lightly rake over the pins a bit (I hate the idea of raking, it seems too random. So I'm trying to stay away from the method before it turns into a bad habit.) and the pick comes out with some of the lubrication on it. Thanks, but I don't think the problem is sticky pins. They're rather fluid, a little too much so actually.

The lock is still a problem though. I'm not reaching for bolt cutters just yet, I'll just relish the moment when I finally manage the get the thing open.

I have to take it back about the American picks too. Though there -is-, alot of the time, very little room for movement. They do pretty well. My front and back door are very tight and two other front door replacement locks I bought are too.

So... Just to test that I am not completely hopeless and stand no chance of opening a lock, I bought two Bird 5 pin door locks. Not sure if they are too secure, but I had the first one open in about 5 minutes worth of attempt. and opened it 10 more times before I moved onto the next. Second lcok was a bit more difficult to start. The 5th, 2nd and 1st pins are a little bit tempermental. But I had it open within 15m of starting. I was quite happy with those results; it proves I am not completely inept when it comes to lock picking.

Conclusion: This padlock is a bugger. Eventually I'll get it. I'll just keep practicing on the Birds... Then to the front and back door to try again.

by **awm** » 4 Feb 2004 19:53

CitySpider: Wow, can't believe I missed this.

Master padlocks (the standard over here) have cylinders that float a little. With them, at least, it's just a matter of getting used to it. Not really a big deal after you do.

I'm startin' to get used to it. I think a few more successful attempts on other locks and a bit more practice and I'll get it finally.

Here's hoping, atleast.

Cheers.

by **Dark Angel** » 19 Feb 2004 9:29

Awm
You really should try your hand at raking the pins with a half diamond or rake pick.I always rake padlocks and cylinder locks when opening them.
I did start out using the method of pushing and setting each pin but this has now become my second option if raking does not work.
I have a similar squire padlock and have a lot of trouble with setting all the pins,but by using a long rake pick and a slightly harder than normal tension i can open this lock in seconds.

Squire & Sons Padlock (GB2103706)

Squire & Sons Padlock (GB2103706)

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