How to handle tight pin tolerances?

[Lynx40]

Hi all.

Sorry...slightly long post ahead.

I'm quite new to the forum, but have been picking independently for quite a few years. Pretty much all self taught, so I thank you all for this forum.

My question involves tight tolerances and how to handle them. I have 2 locks, one of which I've had for quite a long time, and I've never been able to wrap my brain around either of them. One is a Brinks padlock, and I know it has the security pins and all, but those aren't really my problem, although I've never been able to pick it.

It seems that no matter what level of tension I apply, be it feather light or to the point of clamping the torque wrench in a vise grips, I can't ever get a single pin to set first. It seems that by whatever fates, the pins are too closely aligned to catch any one particular pin first.

So, what do any of do for those really stubborn locks with tight pin tolerance?

The obvious answer is "Practice, practice, practice."
But, I've had one particular lock for over a year, and haven't even lucked out in picking it once, while I've got half a drawer full of locks I've almost grown bored with. Well, not really. When these locks get me down, it feels good to pull another out of the drawer, pop it open and tell myself "See...you can pick THAT one."

I mean, even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while, but not on these two. Even if I DO eventually luck out with either of these locks, I won't really have a clue what I did right. And, at this rate, by the time I find a pattern...well, let's face it. At this rate, I won't find a pattern to picking them.

So, what's the best method to tackling these beasties? I've read a few post about these two particular locks, and the replies were "Yeah, that's a tough lock to pick."
Well, yeah...but I just can't get seem to get a single pin to set first on either of them.

I'm almost embarrassed to say one is a Brinks 101-40001 and I'm REALLY embarrassed to say the other is a Master 575. Both of which I've seen people post that they can pick regularly.

A light tension results in nothing more than tired fingers from spending half an hour knocking pins about. A heavy tension results in about the same...unless I really wrench on it and bind ALL the pins. But, even then, that's rare. I just can't seem to get any pin to set...or even overset on these two.

Any advice?
Thanks,

Brad

[Cybernation]

I have a number of locks that have given me problems in the past and what I found that works well is taking it apart... then using a dremel to make the lock a cut away. This way I can see what I am doing wrong... if you want to make sure you dont cheat by looking where the pins are just put some tape over the slits and go at it. I just find it hard that you cant get any of the pins to catch even though the Brinks are known for their secrutiy pins.

[Lynx40]

The lock cutaway idea is not a bad one. I've yet to do that. I guess I've always felt it was "cheating" in a way. And, to be truthful, until finding this site, the thought never really occurred to me...I'd seen store bought cutaways, but never thought about making one on my own. It may be a good idea to sacrifice the Brinks to further the education.

You said it seems strange that I can't get any to catch. Well, that's kind of the reason for the post. I've got another Master 575 that has always given me a bit of trouble, but I've managed to "slop pick" it open a few times. But, never these 2 locks. I just can't seem to get the pins to catch.

It's not so much "How can I pick this lock?" It's more of a Pick-Fu hypothetical question. "How do you folks deal with very tight tolerances?" or at least a lock that seems to be tougher than expected and fighting you at every move.

What is the 'zen' of fighting those really stubborn ones?

Obviously, cutting away any lock that's being difficult isn't always an option. So, when you have a really tough one, what steps do you folks go through to troubleshoot it?

Brad

[CVScam]

I just got that new Ace padlock that uses the Schlage keyway and I think 2-3 spool pins. If I use the normal tension wrench and try to pick it clockwise it is almost impossible BUT if I put the tension wrench on the top of the cylinder or pick it counter clockwise the pins will bind one at a time and the spools are easy to feel. I also have a lot more luck using slim line picks than standard thickness picks.

[cjames73]

have you tried raking them open?
rake a few times, keep your tension and change to a hook to SPP any unset pins.

[Lynx40]

Yeah, I've tried raking them. But, to be honest that's one area where I do need a lot of practice. I've always been kind of a "purist" about it, and figure if I can't SPP them, then I'm really just getting lucky. Not that there isn't any skill in raking...I know i'm no good at it, and need to spend more time doing it. But, I like to know exactly what's going on in there as I pick. I like to feel the pins and know exactly where I'm at.

I've tried to tension from the top, but one of my problems there is that I can't get a good grip, and the wrench keeps slipping...gotta' make some more wrenches to fit all possible scenarios. Good suggestion, though. And that's what I'm looking for...some of the "out of the ordinary" things people do tackle a troublesome lock.

Thanks for the input. I'm interested in hearing anyone's favorite techniques to get the job done...mostly SPP techniques, but anything you use will be interesting to read about.

Brad

[cheesehead]

do you have any pictures of the tools you are using? are they "home brew" - they may need a little tweaking. the first thing that came to mind was to suggest putting your wrench in the top of the keyway - but I see that has already been adressed - my second thought was that maybe your lock has some "high" "low" keying. namely that you have "long" bottom pin in the first stack, and you are oversetting it when you insert your pick. if that's the case, you probably wont ever feel any of them set.

[Deathadder]

Most likely you have got a problem with finding the binding pin if you can't get any pins to set, what's probably happening is you have 4 (or 5 if it is a 6 pin lock) spool pins, and 1 regular pin. The spool pins (especially if they are "spoorated", or spools with serrated ends) will catch on the shear line, but it is difficult to tell whether it is a false set, real set, or over set. The solution to this is to push pin 1 up until you hear it clickonce, if it doesn't click, let off tension and move to pin 2, if it does click, however, push pin 2 up until it clicks, if it doesn't, let off tension, click pin 1 up, then click pin 3 up. Keep repeating this process until you can feel significant rotation in the cylinder, this will most likely indicate that you have set the "regular" pin, and all the spool pins will be either set, or binding in the center of the spool, which is recessed, this is what makes the cylinder rotate. Once it has rotated, push lightly on each pin while applying light tension, and see if you get negative plug rotation, if you do, push up until you see the cylinder almost go back to where it was originally, but instead of staying there, it will most likely turn even further than it was before. This indicates a properly set spool pin. If it stays where it is, and doesn't turn, you probably unset a pin by picking the spool pin, don't worry, though, all you have to do is find out which one was unset and set it again. Repeat this to all the pins that have the tell-tale signs of a spool pin (negative plug rotation) and the lock should be open in no time. If you still can't get it to open, or even rotate, try lifting pin 1, if it doesn't rotate, let off tension (this is to make sure pin 1 didn't catch) and lift pin 2, if the same happens, let off tension and lift pin 3 ect. ect. If you have any questions, feel free to pm me, if you could find a picture (or take one) of the locks, that would probably help also

I find this method to be the best way to handle a lock that you haven't made any progress on in a while (5 total hours of picking or more). Once you get used to this type of lock, though, it will become easier for you to tell the difference between the different plug rotations/clicks/feeling of set-unset-overset pins.

Hope this made sense, if anyone has something to add/correct just do it below.

(also, before you do any of this, take a look at the key that comes with it, if you see a real deep cut followed by a real high cut, then you need to get a long hook to set that one, as mentioned below. Looking at the key can also help if you are having trouble with security pins, just take a look at the key and compare the cuts to the pins in the lock.)

Sorry this came out to be so long, I just would like to help anyone else that has had problems with security pins, or other problems, as well as you. Good luck .

[Lynx40]

Cheesehead, no photos. No digital camera...which is odd in itself, since I'm a computer graphics tech.

At present, I own a South Ord slimline set. But, as I said at the intro, I've been picking independantly for close to 20 years, but basically flying solo...and flying blind. I started out with a rinky-dink pick set called "Pix-Quik". Rough as a cob, but it did the trick for more than a decade. Wish I would have found this site a few years back. Some hefty sanding would have done wonders. To date, my best pick is a homebrew, dinky hook. Beautiful pick...albeit kind of ugly looking. When nothing else works, that's the one I turn to. For "normal" work, I tend to lean towards the Slim-line medium hook as my tool of choice.

The Master lock does indeed have a very long pin in the 4th position. It makes it tough to get behind it to do much of anything at all. And that may be the problem with that one.

As I said, it's not so much "How do I pick this lock" as it is, "How do you folks go about tackling a lock that is difficult."

It just so happens that these 2 seem to be a thorn in my side, so I used them as examples. By all means, if someone can say how to pick them, I would appreciate it very much. But, my main question is how to go about tackling a lock when all of your normal methods fail.

Deathadder...very nice! THAT's the type of info I'm looking for. Your post came in just as I was typing this, so I don't have time to address it completely until I read through it and digest everything you said. I've tackled spool pins before, and have overcome them, but that's a very nice write up, and a great teaching tool. A great step by step, methodical process to follow.

I'm not sure if spool pins are the problem with both of the locks, or as my title suggests...just tight tolerances, but your post is the type of thing I'm shooting for with this topic...in general, how to tackle a stubborn lock...

Thanks for the feedback.

Brad

[Lynx40]

Deathadder, thanks to your methodical technique I was able to pick the Master Lock for the first time. It took a few days, but it eventually happened. I had to use a Deforest pick with a half ball to get the back few pins.

Still no luck with the Brinks, and as I said, I've only gotten the Master Lock once...but at least I don't need to look at it like it's an untamable beastie anymore.

As I said in an earlier post, I've been hobby picking for years, but never adopted a methodical way of going about it, and have never had anyone to turn to in order to learn properly. It was usually a random shot at the pins until one of them caught. That's actually pretty successful, but not great for problem solving on a stubborn lock. Thanks for the info.

I've also spent some time working on my raking techniques. Getting better at it, but still prefer SPP. Even though it does surprise me how fast a few of the more difficult locks give way to a rake.

If anyone else has any techniques they use to fight the stubborn locks, I would like to hear about them. If you have a favorite method to work through a problem lock, feel free to post it. I know I've learned a new technique that helps to further the education. I hope others can learn from them, too.

Thanks again,

Brad

[ian55]

New to lp101.To familierise myself with the site,I have spent a few hours reading the forum threads,and i must say the info available is top rate, in particular the thread dealing with tight pin tolerances.This information was so well described i could visualise the lock in my minds eye superb
Thanks Ian55