Tension question

[rx6006]

Greetings,

I am still doing a lot of practicing on a Sargent LA-style keyway. I can currently pick it with up to four standard pins installed; unfortunately, I think I may be deluding myself into thinking I can pick it at four pins, whereas I may just be raking it open. I wonder because in a previous thread, someone had mentioned that if the tension wrench is leaving a mark on your finger, it's entirely too much tension. I currently tension the cylinder, pick the first set pin, then gradually pull my short hook from the back of the lock to the front. The lock will open, but I'm sure it's a far cry from SPP. When I try to SPP the 4 pins, it seems as though I am never able to get but one pin to set, and the abovementioned method was my sort of workaround for it. My question is, how does one properly gauge tension in theory? I realize it will differ dramatically from lock to lock, but is there a sort of guideline for pressure? While I'm quite happy being able to open a lock, I truly want to learn proper SPP and open locks the right way, as I know this skill will benefit me when I am ready to move on to bigger and better challenges. Many thanks in advance for your continued help and guidance.

[mstrlckmya$$]

While I'm quite happy being able to open a lock, I truly want to learn proper SPP and open locks the right way, as I know this skill will benefit me when I am ready to move on to bigger and better challenges.

i get what you mean, but 5 bucks says squelchtone is going to acuse you of illegal activitys and tell you to leave the sight, dont listen to him and best of luck in your adventures!

[rx6006]

Yeah, no, I'm not really trying to play "let's bash the senior members of a very supportive hobbyist community all because my initial post sounded inherently shady and was further compounded by my irritated, incoherent ranting" today. I do sincerely help Squelch is around for his input though; he's good people. I'm willing to bet if you would try to be civil in the future and not hijack any more threads, your perception of this place might be a little bit different.

[Artkrp]

Out of curiosity, What kind of lock is it, do you know? Is it an American mortise cylinder with a LA plug in it? Or is it Original Sargent? Sargent mortise cyl's have the name on the front of them so its easy to tell. Of course it could be a number of different cylinders with replacement plugs, but those two are the most common. Don't listen to the "if you do XYZ then you're doing it wrong/ right" . That is all a bunch of crap IMHO. Practice diligently and really try to visualize. Seriously, try visualizing. It's harder than it sounds when you first start on it lol. Some cores react well to heavier turning pressure, some better to light. Light is definitely better for me when raking. I kind of have a natural "rest my finger" weight when I first start on a lock, but my tension changes depending on what the lock is doing while I pick it. I ease tension on pins that are binding badly or are spools(they work themselves out, you'll see lol), And I increase tension when pins are not binding or seem as though the springs are worn. I also do this to plugs that are very dirty.

Anyways, it sounds to me as though, yes, you are "raking" it open. When you SPP a lock, you physically move from one pin to the next with intent and knowledge of how you are opening the lock. Generally, when you have SPP'd a lock and were really paying attention, you will know what pin you are under, which pins are bound and lifted, and how many you have left. you will know when you lift the last pin it is going to open. What may be happening is that your bitting may be too simple (4,5,6 or something simple or consecutive) or your springs could be going bad. Your plug could be a cheap replacement as well, and thus have loose tolerances. Try re-arranging your pins and replacing the springs. You can use springs from other cylinders to do this if you do not have any laying around. The Pins in a Sargent have a round bottom if orig. Sargent pins, or have Conical, LAB style pins if not. if your pins are round, assume you most likely have an orig. Sargent, since many locksmiths do not bother buying this kit for rekeys unless they live in an area with many Sargent locks. Orig. Sargent mortise cyls do well with light to medium tension in my opinion and if you can open a Schlage original cylinder then you can open a Sargent as well. American mortise cylinders are easier than Schlage orig. mortise cyls and that should open easily too with some practice. Just keep up the practice and keep on the visualizing. don't get lazy with it and remember to have fun.

[Legion303]

i get what you mean, but 5 bucks says squelchtone is going to acuse you of illegal activitys and tell you to leave the sight, dont listen to him and best of luck in your adventures!

15. Trolling will get you banned. Do NOT Troll.

Feel free to consider this your warning. Also feel free to browse through the Rules post to remind yourself of the information you agreed to when you signed up two days ago.

-steve

[le.nutzman]

Greetings,

I am still doing a lot of practicing on a Sargent LA-style keyway. I can currently pick it with up to four standard pins installed; unfortunately, I think I may be deluding myself into thinking I can pick it at four pins, whereas I may just be raking it open. I wonder because in a previous thread, someone had mentioned that if the tension wrench is leaving a mark on your finger, it's entirely too much tension. I currently tension the cylinder, pick the first set pin, then gradually pull my short hook from the back of the lock to the front. The lock will open, but I'm sure it's a far cry from SPP. When I try to SPP the 4 pins, it seems as though I am never able to get but one pin to set, and the abovementioned method was my sort of workaround for it. My question is, how does one properly gauge tension in theory? I realize it will differ dramatically from lock to lock, but is there a sort of guideline for pressure? While I'm quite happy being able to open a lock, I truly want to learn proper SPP and open locks the right way, as I know this skill will benefit me when I am ready to move on to bigger and better challenges. Many thanks in advance for your continued help and guidance.

Here is a link to a post that I wrote back in 2006 about how to tell the different levels of tension you're using. Hope this helps some for you.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17324&p=208522#p208522

[UtahRootBeer]

If your ham fisting it you could make you a feather tension tool that really helped me get the feel of tension down.

[rx6006]

Out of curiosity, What kind of lock is it, do you know? Is it an American mortise cylinder with a LA plug in it? Or is it Original Sargent? Sargent mortise cyl's have the name on the front of them so its easy to tell. Of course it could be a number of different cylinders with replacement plugs, but those two are the most common. Don't listen to the "if you do XYZ then you're doing it wrong/ right" . That is all a bunch of crap IMHO. Practice diligently and really try to visualize. Seriously, try visualizing. It's harder than it sounds when you first start on it lol. Some cores react well to heavier turning pressure, some better to light. Light is definitely better for me when raking. I kind of have a natural "rest my finger" weight when I first start on a lock, but my tension changes depending on what the lock is doing while I pick it. I ease tension on pins that are binding badly or are spools(they work themselves out, you'll see lol), And I increase tension when pins are not binding or seem as though the springs are worn. I also do this to plugs that are very dirty.

Anyways, it sounds to me as though, yes, you are "raking" it open. When you SPP a lock, you physically move from one pin to the next with intent and knowledge of how you are opening the lock. Generally, when you have SPP'd a lock and were really paying attention, you will know what pin you are under, which pins are bound and lifted, and how many you have left. you will know when you lift the last pin it is going to open. What may be happening is that your bitting may be too simple (4,5,6 or something simple or consecutive) or your springs could be going bad. Your plug could be a cheap replacement as well, and thus have loose tolerances. Try re-arranging your pins and replacing the springs. You can use springs from other cylinders to do this if you do not have any laying around. The Pins in a Sargent have a round bottom if orig. Sargent pins, or have Conical, LAB style pins if not. if your pins are round, assume you most likely have an orig. Sargent, since many locksmiths do not bother buying this kit for rekeys unless they live in an area with many Sargent locks. Orig. Sargent mortise cyls do well with light to medium tension in my opinion and if you can open a Schlage original cylinder then you can open a Sargent as well. American mortise cylinders are easier than Schlage orig. mortise cyls and that should open easily too with some practice. Just keep up the practice and keep on the visualizing. don't get lazy with it and remember to have fun.

Thanks very much for the detailed response. It's actually a practice cylinder, not a branded Sargent but an LA plug, I purchased shortly after I got my first pick set. I appreciated the ease of re-pinning, the inclusion of many different replacement pins, etc. I'd imagine that, while it's been a decent teaching tool, it probably has looser tolerances than a real life counterpart. I really do need to head down to the Home Depot or somewhere and pick out a handful of Master locks to broaden my horizons. The springs may be going bad from my less than delicate technique, but I'm more inclined to think that it's not the lock, it's me. I'd imagine a bad spring just shows signs of obvious deformity, etc.? I will try to take it slow, lighten up the tension, and see if I can't understand what is happening inside the lock. It's so easy to fall into the habit of just wanting to get it open, while ignoring the science behind it. If that doesn't work, I will try to repin the keyway for a different configuration.

[rx6006]

Here is a link to a post that I wrote back in 2006 about how to tell the different levels of tension you're using. Hope this helps some for you.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17324&p=208522#p208522

Thank you; I like the concept of relating tension strength to plug spin. It avoids the sort of arbitrary "this much tension is too much, this tension is not enough" sort of concepts. I'm sure a large part of the problem is remedied by practice and time, as well.

[mylofox]

[If you want to argue about moderator decisions, take it up in PM. Editing non-relevant portion and deleting other posts. Please stay on topic. --Legion303]

And now to stay on topic... tension is a tricky thing. When you pick a lock in your hand whether it be a mortise, rim, kiK or any other cylinder generally a very light tension is used. When you pick a lock on a mount board the assembled lock may require different tension, I have found it requires more tension. Try the exercise listed below to get a feel for the proper amount of tension for your lock.

With the pins at rest insert your tension wrench and apply tension in the desired direction. (Remember that some locks like schlage like to pick to the "locked" position.) Insert your favorite pick and lift a pin. If the pin is hard to lift then ease up on the tension a little. Repeat this on different pins, starting with more tension than you need and lighten up. Practice this until you get a feel for what tension locks up the pin and what tension allows you to lift it smoothly but still hold the top pin on the "shelf".

I think its kinda hard to describe the right amount of tension, sometimes there are variables within the lock that can totally change how you would normally pick it. And unless your lock is mounted and you have a hands free tension setup then there is no easy way to give a measurement, it's all feel. But try the exercise above and see if that helps you feel for yourself.

Good Luck!

[rx6006]

Thanks! I'll do just that. I will have plenty of hotel room downtime next week to try. Not to hijack my own thread, but what is your (anyone else feel free) opinion on mounting locks for picking? I know it's more conducive to a "real" picking environment, but as I don't plan on becoming a locksmith in my lifetime...I won't be picking any locks out in the real world. I have also heard mixed opinions on locks in the hand having better feedback, etc.

[mylofox]

Glad your finding the info your looking for. As far a mounting vrs handheld...

Some pickers prefer the handheld method. It can provide different sometimes more feedback. Practice mounting is more real world I have noticed that the picking is very different, IMHO. An assembled lock can have counter turning force due to tail piece contact on the back of the lock. This is also where the tension will change because your turning more than just the plug.

If your just picking to pick and solve puzzles than handholding the lock will be better. But get some practice mount picking in too just incase or to learn the difference between the two forms of picking. If nothing else pick whatever you want to pick.

This discussion pertains to locks that are "not in use" the best way to get practice locks is to ask a neighborhood realtor or local lockie if they have some "take offs" and it doesn't matter if they have keys for them or not. Buy a rekeying kit from homedepot and change the combos yourself for practice if you want.

Good luck!

[FreemasonAFAM]

rx6006 - thanks for starting a great thread here.

I too have been (still am) trying to figure out tension also, so it's been a big help seeing what everyone has to say on the subject.

The more I read the more I understand that I am using way too much tension. Agh: lots to learn!

Been helpful folks, thanks.

[rx6006]

rx6006 - thanks for starting a great thread here.

I too have been (still am) trying to figure out tension also, so it's been a big help seeing what everyone has to say on the subject.

The more I read the more I understand that I am using way too much tension. Agh: lots to learn!

Been helpful folks, thanks.

Glad to be of service. I took an interest in locksport for many reasons, once of which is the application of fine motor skills it requires. Having been the victim of erbs palsy and the recipient of a shoulder replacement by 18, I relish an opportunity for anything entertaining that helps stave off the inevitable arthritis I will experience. The tension I was formerly utilizing left me quite tired after 30 minutes or so. Now, with lighter tension, I am able to practice for around an hour.

[sterry20]

your torque on your tension is usely no more then the amount you use to open the lock with a key!