Binding order

[commadore]

I've got a question about binding order I need cleared up

Is binding order determined solely by the diameters of the pins and plug or does pin height have an effect of binding order?

[Squelchtone]

Not by the diameter, and not by the length of the pins, but by the location of the holes on the exterior surface of the plug. consider looking down on a plug sitting on a table and seeing its holes from above. Now draw an imaginary line across the centers of those holes. Some of the holes will be off center because they were drilling using a process which is not meant to be precise to the micron.

By virtue of the holes being off center in either direction, when rotational force is applied on the plug, and pins are lifted, they will bind against the sidewalls of the plug holes at different times depending on how offset the holes are from the center line. This is binding order, and it is different for each lock on earth because the drilling process is so sloppy, and each new hole drilled is drilled with drill bits that have more or less wear on them, that the binding order is bound to change from lock to lock.

Some locks have the pin holes drilled better than other plugs, so a high end lock like an ASSA Twin will be harder to set and figure out binding order because quite often the holes are all so close to that imaginary center line that lifting a pin will make another pin drop down. In a cheap brass padlock these holes are much sloppier and materials softer which add to the deformations of the holes and their distances from the imaginary center line.

I hope this diagram I found on google helps where my description may fall short:


Squelchtone

[commadore]

Clear as day now, Working on a brinks 527 that's not keyed easy. Since every bloody pin in those is serrated can that effect the binding order? Then mix in spools and its a mess.

[fgarci03]

Not to step on Squelchtones toes, as he knows immensely more than me, but I believe the the pin diameter is also relevtant to the binding order. And the chamber diameter also. But not the pin lenght.

They aren't nearly as relevant as the chamber alignment, but they do make a difference. The differences on the diameters are tiny even compared to the differences in the alignment, but I believe they exist, because the binding order is not always inverted when you tension the lock the other way arround.

Clear as day now, Working on a brinks 527 that's not keyed easy. Since every bloody pin in those is serrated can that effect the binding order? Then mix in spools and its a mess.

Having serrated pin or spools might change the binding order only if the pins have different diameters. So it's not relevant if they are serrated or not, but if they are perfectly made. Which means that in 90% of the cases the binding order stays the same.

When using spools the binding order may appear to be different, but it's usually not the case. It has to do with the center of the spool being thinner than the regular pin, so it won't bind before it. But what counts is the bottom lip on the spool that, if it is a little off centered (regarding the chamber alignment) it is actually the binding pin. You may be able to set other pins first, but when you get to that one, all the others that are next on the binding order (that you already set) will drop. A better explanation of this can be found on Solomon's Book on page 19. Be sure to read it, as it is very important!

[spoonzor]

In the picture, wouldn't 1 bind first on clockwise picking?

[Squelchtone]

In the picture, wouldn't 1 bind first on clockwise picking?

Don't get hung up on the pic, its something I pulled from google image search and is not meant to be accurate to the millimeter. the diagrams maker seems to think 5 then 1, but I see what you see that 1 looks like it would be first. I'm not sure who drew it, I'm sure they were also just trying to make the point of how it works, only so much you can do in Windows Paint. =)

Keep practicing, I think you're getting it!

Squelchtone

[spoonzor]

actually on second look the picture looks to be correct after all! I was assuming that all chambers would be exactly round, but obviously they might as well be oval shaped

[commadore]

Yeah just started reading solomans book- very very informative with none of the filler. If anyone has not herd of this its called Lockpicking- detail overkill - A must read

It took me a while to get over the fact that height of pins does not effect binding order. For some reason my head automatically assumed this.

[fgarci03]

It took me a while to get over the fact that height of pins does not effect binding order. For some reason my head automatically assumed this.

Any particular reason why you thought that?
Or you just assumed from the start?

[commadore]

I think I just assumed that the longest pin would set first and then going down in order of height. I am of course wrong. lol

[FarmerFreak]

I believe the chambers, driver pin length, and pin diameter (in that order) all play a role in which pins bind first.

The reason the chambers is the greatest determining factor was explained very well by squelchtone earlier in this thread.

Next is driver pins length NOT key pin length. The key pins don't cross the shear line unless they have been pushed up too high, I consider this to be making a mistake. But if you have two chambers that would bind at approximately the same time the driver pin length will determine which one binds first. Think about it this way, inside the chamber the tolerances need to be loose enough that the pins can move freely up and down. To do that there needs to be room to the sides of the pins. A shorter pin will be able to rotate on a greater angle inside the chamber than a longer one.

Last is the diameter of the pins. Why, because pins are generally made to almost exact specifications every time. It's incredibly easier to get pins of almost the exact diameter than it is to drill 4+ holes in a perfect line.

While this is all nice to know. What's important is that a binding pin is a binding pin, and a binding pin needs to be moved until it is no longer a binding pin.

[ckc123]

I've got a question about binding order I need cleared up

Is binding order determined solely by the diameters of the pins and plug or does pin height have an effect of binding order?

Don't forget the top pin type as well (Spool, serrated etc..)

[commadore]

While this is all nice to know. What's important is that a binding pin is a binding pin, and a binding pin needs to be moved until it is no longer a binding pin.

Keeping it simple.

[fgarci03]

Aaaaand, FarmerFreak just had to come here and put everything in a simple way. Couldn't you leave us noobs discussing a lost cause?

Thanks for the info! Very helpfull

[YouLuckyFox]

I hope this diagram I found on google helps where my description may fall short:


Squelchtone

Dude, sweet that you googled a diagram I made from my Photobucket account!