Extreme pick-resistant lock

[Romstar]

Does anyone have the internal diagram of that lock?

Whitehat, that wasn't nice. Calling me a l33t p1x0r.

I just want you to think about the lock you are attacking. We all get a bit complacent about this stuff, and when someone throws something like this at us, we hesitate. That hesitation is what causes us to think something can't be picked.

One of the funniest things in the world is the fact that engineers can dream things up, and build them, but they can't break them.

Throw the product out into the world, and let people bang on it, and you get two results. The first result is that someone figures out how to beat the lock. The second result is that they are always making better fools. You figure out what flaws they might find.

At any rate, that lock is time consuming, but not impossible. It does what it is supposed to do. Slow you down considerably. If it was meant for use in a prison facility, that's all it has to do. Slow you down long enough for the next guard patrol to arrive. It looks bad to find an inmate picking a lock, and looks downright funny to find the pick sticking out of the keyway.

Romstar

[WhiteHat]

sorry dude, never meant any disrespect as usual.

have you ever picked one yourself?

[Hak]

.At any rate, that lock is time consuming, but not impossible.

Hehe, exactly.. if your in prison then time isnt really a rare commodity.

You might have to watch for guards, but you could always ask the guy in the next cell to help keep an eye out for ya. Eventually, through trial and error, you will get it open. And all that time you got on your hands, just helps improve your technique on that lock, and it may give you an idea of what your working with.

[frostbyte]

Although they do have lots of spare time on their hands, who is going to take the risk to open their food door

Key: Prison Paracentric
Door: Food Pass/Swinging
Security Level: Medium

[S3rratedSp00L]

In the F.A. lock pictured above somewhere....

Are the holes in the plug and shell for the vertically oriented pins staggered or something? If not, once picked and turned slightly couldn't the left set if vertical pins end up mating with the set to the right and causing a problem? (if turned clockwise) Maybe just having to pick those again or something. ...or is it made to turn counterclockwise only?

Either way, If you combine that with a corrugated or other paracentric keyway it should present a real tough challenge!

Remind me not to end up in prison with no picks! ( I guess those poor salad tossing peckerwoods aren't going anywhere!)

[CaptHook]

It almost looks like a well placed tension wrench would take care of the 2 sets of side stacks.
Chuck

[WhiteHat]

In the F.A. lock pictured above somewhere....

Are the holes in the plug and shell for the vertically oriented pins staggered or something? If not, once picked and turned slightly couldn't the left set if vertical pins end up mating with the set to the right and causing a problem? (if turned clockwise) Maybe just having to pick those again or something. ...or is it made to turn counterclockwise only?

Either way, If you combine that with a corrugated or other paracentric keyway it should present a real tough challenge!

Remind me not to end up in prison with no picks! ( I guess those poor salad tossing peckerwoods aren't going anywhere!)

from the diagram that I have I'm pretty sure the pin stacks are staggered. but number 2 and 3 would have to be in line with eachother (hence my saying that I can't imagine what it would be like to try to turn it past about 85 degrees - bring on the plug spinner I guess..

I don't think that a tension wrench would do it for the side pins... they would have less distance to travel to reach the shear line as pin row 1, but still.... I guess it's just like picking a dimple lock on the side..

[CaptHook]

Lets go on the assumption the stacks are staggered off the main stack, look at the pic, I brightened it up a bit....

The "other" vertical stack looks dependant on the horizontal stack, as in set the side pins, and the other vertical pins are set also. I have not seen the key for this lock, but Im guessing theres no side milling? If not, the proper tension wrench and placement would take care of the 2 mystery stacks, leaving you with the norm. Rom?
Chuck

[WhiteHat]

i don't understand why there would be no side milling - defeats the purpose of having actual pins as opposed to just a sidebar type thing.

you're right in saying that if you set a row 3 pin, it will allow the row 2 pin to drop to it's correct height, , the problem is that the row 2 pin may not be binding yet and will still be free to move. but it's spring force will hold the bottom row 3 pin in place because it will be sitting in the notch.

I guess I'm also assuming that the notches on the row 3 pins are all at different places allong the pin. if they're all at the end like that, then all you have to do is push the row three pins up until you meet extra resistance (that's it hitting the row 2 pin).

[Romstar]

sorry dude, never meant any disrespect as usual.

have you ever picked one yourself?

Of course not. I was teasing.

Unless you get a PM from me expressing my displeasure, assume I am teasing at all times.

You would be amazed what it takes to insult me.

Anyway, I thought it was funny.

Romstar

[Romstar]

First of, careful inspection of the diagram will show that no matter what angle the plug is turned to, no two pin stacks ever line up at the same time except in the locked position.

This means that once the lock is picked, or the correct key is inserted, it will stay unlocked until returned to the normal upright position.

Further, it appears that there is no side milling on the right side, and that the horizontal pin stack is arranged as a dimple type system.

This allows the pins to reach their shear lines, and aditionally for the second verical pin stack to set in their proper places.

There has to be something special about the "holes" in the horizontal pins. Otherwise, simply pushing them in would allow the second vertical stack to snap into place automatically. So, perhaps the cuts in the pins are larger than necessary to allow the second stack to set in all positions.

I would love to have an exploded diagram of the lock, but so far I don't see anything that would make special tools a requirement.

Romstar

[snowcat]

Just curious

Group 1 is normal and group 3 should keep its angle thanks to the group 2 pins pushing on them
but
what’s keeping the group 2 pins from turning around so it can't function normally?

Something like this (the thin red line)




possible that the point of the pin is flat but I could imagine turning a group 2 pin while picking group 3

[S3rratedSp00L]

hehehe maybe a dimpled tension tool could be made, and used to foil impression the side pins while you pick stack number one!

On a serious note, how does the curve of the plug effect the extra vertical pins that are offset? I wonder if this would effect picking in different directions. i.e make it harder to pick in one direction than the other..

I assume these pins don't have beveled edges or anything, judging py the picture... No security pins??? (What is our prison system coming too! hehe)

[WhiteHat]

the driver in stack one looks like it's attempting to be a serrated pin but it could just be me with bleary eyes.....

if I had a scanner I'd post the cutaway diagram that I have... I don't have any exploded views though...

[S3rratedSp00L]

<Begin thinking out loud>

Hmmm... I guess if I were to try a lock like this, I would place my tension tool in the top of the keyway and apply tension a direction that would depend on how he lock was mounted. I might try counter-clockwise first just because I think it might go that way easier.. I'd probably try the horizontal pins first because it looks to me that the normal key pins won't do much unless all the extra pins will split properly at the plug. I would sure like to see a vid of this lock being opened with a key.

If the first method didn't work, I would probably try picking at the normal key pins and then the side. Still with the wrench in the top of the keyway and alternating the direction of tension fir each try. (Unless I knew or guessed the proper unlock direction)

I suppose that getting the lock picked would only be part of the problem if the mechanism connected to it was setup in a nonstandard way. Like maybe having to turn in both directions before the lock opens or something. How hard would that be for a manufacturer to impliment? This lock is used for prisons, so I would think that there is a good chance that the mechanism would be somewhat different than that connected to my deadbolt here at home. Does anyone know how they designed to be installed/used in the door? (and what the door looks like? I have never been to prison or even arrested)

Using a spinner on this beast could be a nightmare! (Might work just fine though, who knows?)

< /End thinking out loud >