Dudley Combination Locks

[frostbyte]

Ok, not sure how accurate this is, and I very unscientifically used a decimal place (for halves only):

57.5 - 0.5
3.5 - 6.5
9.5 - 12.5
15.5 - 17.5
21.5 - 24.5
27.5 - 30.0
33.0 - 36.5
39.0 - 43.0
45.5 - 47.5
51.5 - 54.5

[Orange_Crusader]

How did you get decimals? Since it's a new lock, there should be no play in the notches. How did you measure the points, by jiggling the dial to the max digits, or from just one position, not taking advantage of the play in the dial?

Again, I'm seeing that 30+ or 30- thing coming back in, along with the 5,3,5 (or 3,5,3) pattern.

Keep up the observations, and keep searching these for more hints. We're really getting some progress with this, we'll crack the Dudley's yet! I guess now our "posse" is five strong. The more the merrier I say, the more help the better, as long as we all can get a fair amount of credit for it when we go down as the noobs who beat Dudley.

I'll check a few more locks for sticking points, the 3,5,3 and +-30 trends tomorrow on my lock at school, and a few of the ones locked to the stair rails.

One note about this project: Solving (or cracking) these Dudley is not for any criminal acts, should not be used for them, and I don't believe any should be commited in working on this. Get permission, ask for people's old locks, but don't try it on people's lockers without exact permission.

Otherwise, keep up the good work.

[frostbyte]

Moved dial until it stuck, rotated dial back and forth a few times and wrote down min and max.

As for the halves, if it was halfway between two numbers, I noted that. Could be this is a cheap-o version of the lock (if they aren't all cheap-o versions) It doesn't look / feel like the highest quality.

http://lens.locksport.com/junk/dudley.jpg

[Orange_Crusader]

Ok, I stayed a bit late and I got the points for my school lock. It's very new (bought in mid-semptember), and it has some weird points:

Keep in mind, the lock has not been dropped (too much), or misused in any way. Wear and tear seems minimal:

0-3
6-9
12-15
18-21
24-27
30-33
36-39
41-44
48-51
54-57

Anyone else see a very, very weird and new pattern (3,3,3,3...) going here? These are about as exact as I could get them while going fast enough not to look stupid or suspicious.

I forgot to get the letter on the back of the lock, though. Oh well, I'll check it on Monday.

The points seem to "trip" right where my first and third numbers are, and in between them as well. Should be easy to spot. The third number (which I'll reveal in a later post) doesn't make any distruption in the points. It falls into one of the 4-digit gaps found on the 3,5,3,5 pattern locks. The combo also does follow the combo rule (2nd<1st, and 3rd>2nd).

There is definetly a difference between the blue/black/grey locks, the date of manufacture, etc. I wonder how many setups of disks there are (i.e. "3,5,3,5" "5,3,5,3", and this one, "3,3,3,3")?

How about those interior pics so we can make out the notches, placement or notches, moving nubs or mechanisms, etc. Anytime will do, but prefferably sooner rather than later.

[I'm Just One]

A 3, 3, 3, 3 pattern? Interesting indeed.

4-5
10-11
16-17
22-23
28-29
34-35
40-41
46-47
52-53
58-59

I don't know if you caught it in my last post, but that one is a 4, 4, 4, 4, etc. pattern, 4's throught the whole thing. So 3's and 5's aren't only patterns used.

Anyways, I've been meaning to mention that years back I saw someone open a lock using a stethoscope kinda contaption. I'm not sure how exactly it works, I'm guessing one would be able to hear when a correct digit is hit. I don't know how easy it would be to get your hands on one of these things, but its another method of cracking combo locks.

[rayman452]

Alright, Ill be home tomorow, so I can show you my chart. Its pretty uncomplicated, but seems to work. You guys may just laugh how easy it was to find these numbers, and that it may be luck, but I believe I'm onto somthing. Im not breaking and entering, I have writtin permission. Sorta a bet we got going on, but thats irellevent

[Orange_Crusader]

Ah, I missed that one. I'll to some fast checks on the disowned locks on the stairwells, to see what the pattern is. Using the numbers 3,4 and 5 seems to be the only practical way, since any less will make the lock harder to open in a hurry (some of the "defects" are intentional, to make it easier to use. You wouldn't want to need to have every digit exactly, every time, would you?), and any more will make it easier to crack, since there will be less points, or smaller tolerance (harder to open in a hurry).

Personally, I don't think the stethoscope method could be used here, since the pin the moves through the notches to let the lock open isn't spring loaded (it's moved by pulling down on the lock, not by a spring), and there is no noise I can think of when you hit the right spot. It would be an interesting idea to try, though. All I can hear without any tools is the little "tick" when each wheel is picked up by the last disk, the jiggle of the pieces due to the play in almost every piece.

I just had thought regarding the locking "pin"

If the sticking points have between 3-5 (presumably) digits of space, and when the lock is open, the dial can move 3 digits (about 1-2 either way, if the pin is 1 digit thick/wide, but that would be a bit weak).

I'll see if I can Photoshop up some dial diagrams, for the "5,3,5" "3,3,3" and "4,4,4" disks if I have the time.

If the disks can wear down enough over a year or so of use so that it can easily slip one or two digits, and if the locking pin is made of the same metal, how strong is it exactly? Wouldn't the pin be gound down eventually as well, making it easier to open (rounded off edges, and a smaller pin into a bigger notch, less accuracy needed)?

I'll try and find one that I can cut open (cutting off the folded metal on the front, so it can be put back together, not destroyed.

[rayman452]

The way my chart was designed was around the idea that I had. I figured that all the dudley locks are designed with the exact same notches, and then a combo is givin to it. A machine then proceeds to file down the notches for the combination, thus creating a possibility for manipulation. Chart goin up tomorow (just mine and friends chart, gotta make a new one for people here)

[Orange_Crusader]

Im not breaking and entering, I have writtin permission. Sorta a bet we got going on, but thats irellevent

I know, just another member said that he would or could try this one his friend's lock to get in without permission. I wasn't addressing anyone in particular, just putting out a simple standard of honesty and legality for this project. We all know that lock picking and cracking has a bad enough image (among the know-nots) without kids going around trying to get into everyone's lockers for this.

I'm in for the challenge, since no one has done this before (AFAIK, this is the most info of this sort in one spot, ouside of Dudley), and because the workings behind these (and any) locks is a heck of an interesting puzzle, one I'd like to help solve.

A bet over cracking Dudley combo locks? Whatever it's for, make sure you send me over some. I accept Paypal . I've got no problem with that, a bet (to me) seems like a little more incentive to work on this, no problem with that.

I'm guessing you've all (or most) heard that the simplest solution is almost always the right one. The sooner you get the chart up, the sooner we can try it out for ourselves, refine if needed, etc. Luck or not, it seems to be working well.

Another word on the older (or heavily used) locks: When checking for the sticking points, the extra wear and tear on the correct points may give a bit of an odd number on the right notches. Even a small difference (0.1, for example) can give it away, or a more rounded notch. Anyone who can, please put up more sticking points, I'd like to see if those patterns using 3,4,5 are constant, or just coincedences.


I should be able to get on here tomorrow as well, the chart seems to be one of the few things that can link (or confirm) the bits info we've found. We have all the pieces (or fairly close to it), we just need to put them together.

[Orange_Crusader]

The way my chart was designed was around the idea that I had. I figured that all the dudley locks are designed with the exact same notches, and then a combo is givin to it. A machine then proceeds to file down the notches for the combination, thus creating a possibility for manipulation.

That's along the same lines I was thinking, that there are standard sets of disks with notches (maybe 3 or 4, possibly differing for lock age, colour, etc), and the "real" ones are filed in, with the rest becoming false notches.
Might there be a difference in how far the U-bar can travel when pulled up on the real notch compared to one of the false ones?

[rayman452]

If there was, Im thinking you'd have to get a ruler or something. I figure that its more the amount of sliding. Im home now, so Ill show you my chart for me and my friends, and then Ill make a new one for this forum. Don't forget to tell me waht colour it is!

[rayman452]

Okey, I got it scanned. For everyone above me, I haven't been reading the numbers, but I'll do it today and attempt to crack the combo. Heres my chart, and Ill give a little comantary on it.

(uspide down)

Thats the unmodifyed one. The next one is modifyed to help you understand it better.

(doh, saved as png...)

Ok, lets look at this chart.(right side up) The first one red circle around the dots are fake. I guessed that since they are 2 off, they must be fake. The same with all the other numbers which are circled in red. The circle with the #4 above it is a possibility, but is mostlikey fake. I would use that one if the combination I came up with didnt work, plus 3 and minus 3. (essentially, I would put the combination in 3 times if it didnt work). The pink circles represent my combination, and the green squares represent my hypothises of her combination. The first dot pair, by 15, is conformed. I know this because they both landed on 15, and after cheeking another friends lock which didbnt have a 15 in the number, it is 100% conformed that its 15. If it isnt 15, you will get a 16 or 17 as your number. THe second one is known, since it touches the exact same dot as the brown line(my combo). Following the pattern of the other dots, if the second number wasnt the shown 26, then the dot should have been 2 points lower. Same conclusion with the last number. Since I know the brown combination, I'm pretty confident in saying my friends lockercombo is 26-15-56. If that doesnt work, and the chart can be off slightly, then the next logical thing to do is change the numbers to 23-12-53, and that would work. Ill get on making a chart for all of your combos next.

[rayman452]

[/img]http://img163.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img163&image=combinationmodifyed5qh.png

Ok, fixed that image. Now, the penciled one is a blue dudley, and Ill make a chart to crack that in a bit. Im considering making a master chart, so I'll get it done. For now, I think the forum newbies are 80% done cracking the dudley code. Woot!!! If anyone finds the chart slightly confusing, I can explain more. I guess I finally made a popular thread though, 400+ views, and only like 4 poeople posting here. A congrats or good job on commin close would help...

No paypal, sorry bud. Bet was she'd owe me lunch, and now she has to clean up my dudley lock on my locker. I took her combination lock while it was open infront of her, so she put her lipgloss stuff all over the lock. Plus side is the lock has never been that lubercated before, but starting to stick now. Meh, lets get this documented.

If I were to get a masterchart, should it be patented?

[Orange_Crusader]

I think I'm starting to see how that works; wherever the lines intersect, is where the combo numbers are likely to be.

Just for confirmation, each line represents the sticking points of a lock, correct? A little bit more explanation to where the X-axis numbers came from (the 10 sticking points?) would be helpful.

Whoops, my school lock is a blue dudley.

I suggest using Microsoft Excel for the next chart, it's easier to read and more accurate (thinner lines, can put co-ordinates in for intersection points, etc.).

What colour is your friend's lock? It it's black (and the blue one is slightly above the black), maybe the only difference between the locks is the way the points line up on a graph (on the y-axis).

If a master chart were made, I don't know if it could be patented, since Dudley probably already has some way of figuring combinations for their locks, in one form or another. Depending on the age of their patents on these locks (they run out eventually, don't they?), we might be able to find a few for these locks, or a way of finding the combos. I know the handheld computer they sell uses the serial numbers to find the combo, but I think it's just used to classify the locks, not actually figure the combo out.

I think we'll have multiple charts (one each for blue, black, etc.), and if there's enoguh space between the points/line on the graphs, we could make one master copy. I wonder the collection series locks are like... They have black dials, and I suppose the same setup as the black locks, but I'd still like to find out the differences, if any.

Looks solid. The only downsiide is that you'll need the sticking points for the lock, which can take a few minutes to get exactly, but it's not too much trouble.

Now I'm starting to wonder about the serial number (most likely, the first few digits might help us ID what setup (3,5,3, 3,3,3, etc) the lock has. I notice that with most thigns with serial numbers, only the last few (3 or 4) are used to specifically show which one of the type it is, while the first few show the type, model, maybe the setup. Kind of like a car's VIN number, I think.

Transfer it to excel, with the axes being as precise (try and get it down to 2-digit incriments, or put the co-ordinates in) as possible.

I wouldn't say 80% yet, but as soon as we get the charts down and precise enough, we'll be there.

[Massif]

58-1
4-7
10-13
16-19
22-25
28-31
34-37
40-43
46-49
52-55

there are my sticky points. It seems like everyone else has points between two numbers. Am I posting the opposite numbers? These are the max/min numbers I can get to when I jiggle the dial.

I will withhold the actual combo for now. I'll post it later if anyone guesses.