Dudley Combination Locks

by **dudlock34** » 4 Jun 2005 15:03

The combination for my lock wasn't with the numbers 7-18-50 and i didn't understand the other stuff you were saying Orange_Crusader. Could you please help me out? Thanks

by **Orange_Crusader** » 5 Jun 2005 14:42

rayman, if you have some time, can you check out dudlock's points (try Cw and CCW) in your charts?

dudlock, I mentioned 5 numbers when I went over the points, comparing the differences between clockwise and counterclockwise.

7, 13, 19, 37, 45, 50

I'm guessing your lock will most likely fall into the 1st>2nd<3rd, and 1st>3rd trend, so I'll re-arrange those numbers into possible combos.

I can say pretty certanly that 37 is in your combo, since there are no other numbers close enough to it to show that there's a false gate. I'd say that 37 is your last number.

So now we have --,--,37

There theoretically should be only 4 numbers left, 2 real ones in the combination and 2 false ones, one from each disk's false gate. I think that 19 is the odd number out, since the other pairs are both 5 digits apart, about the space between a real gate and false one.

I have a small theory:

Ok, in my lock, the false gates (both) were to the left of the real gate on the disks. That means that the real number would be the latter one in the pair. I'm not sure if it's this way with all dudleys (the disk arrangement), so could rayman , d_b (congrats on the mod position, too), and anyone else that has an opened dudley and/or remebers the real/false gate alignment (whether the false gate is to the left or right of the real one) post their layout? I think this might be what we were looking for.

In this case, your combo could be in the range of:

13, 37, 50 (general)

50, 13, 37 (using the general rule, but I'm not sure if it applies to yours. Try it all the same)

or maybe: 37, 13, 50

Give those a try, I'll see how my little theory goes.

by **dudlock34** » 5 Jun 2005 22:46

I finally figured out my combination, it was 17-46-31, thanks for the help.

by **DudleyDoer** » 21 Jun 2005 15:06

Hi,
Please help. I have an antique Dudley padlock which I'm trying to figure out the combination for. This one is brass with a black face using numbers 0-39. The sticking points are
7
10-11
14-15
18
22
25-26
29
32-33
36-37
39-02
One thing I can perhaps contribute to the group is the following link to the Patent Office Search Page http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm
Where I used the patent number on the lock, 1736183, to view the patent(s) which contains diagrams and detailed descriptions of the lock. Another patent, 1655002 on Permutation Locks, is referenced in 1736183 and is also available. You need a free browser plug-in to view the tiff images, which is linked to from the Patent Office website.

by **Orange_Crusader** » 23 Jun 2005 10:01

dudlock's combo took a bit of the wind out of my sails...

Where did that 31 come from? I can understand the 17 and 46, but the 31 didn't show up in the points, 31's spot showed no change between CW and CCW. Well... it was the last number, so that could mean that the counter-point method (new term!) only gives possible spots for the 2 free spinning disks, which have only one notch per disk as a false gate, versus the last disk (fixed disk) having 10 possible gates, and no size or shape (only depth) difference between them.

I would think this makes it a bit easier, only having to get the first 2 numbers (I remember saying many pages back that we only had to get 2 of the numbers, the last was idiotproof). We can put together combos of 2 numbers that show a difference in the counter-point checks, possibly using the general rule stated before (which doesn't apply everywhere, but to a decent portion of locks, so it's a start). Really, all anyone needs for this is the first 2 numbers, and they can trial and error the last one easily. We need a way to pinpoint the first 2 numbers, at least.... I'll be checking over my "stable" of dudleys (3 working locks, one of them opened up) to see if anything can help.

Here goes my train of thought so far: The disks are moved by small nubs, and when the lock is spun CW, the first nub is "collected" on the right side of the nub on the fixed disk, and the second disks's nub is collected on the right of the first disks's bottom nub (sorry, very confusing unless you have an opened lock on hand, I'll get pics), and vice versa for the lock being spun CCW. This makes the notch and gate on the free disks line up slightly off center compared to a gate on the fixed disk. I think they line up a bit to the right when spun CW, and a bit to the left when spun CCW, relative to the fixed disks's gates. This small change in the disks' position gives us a difference in points, becuase the little bit of disk jutting out into the space of the fixed disks's gate has been moved to the other side of the gate, changing the point numbers. I know that the nubs aren't lined up right on top of one another on the free disks (top and bottom numbs), but they are positioned so that when the dial is at a certain number, the disks's gate (and false gate-notch) will be at the shackle, and measurable.

If there's a difference in how far the notch (which shows up as a false get in the counter-point method) moves compared to the real gate, when the direction is switched from CW to CCW, such as 0.5 or 1 digit being removed from one end of the point, and added to another. I think the notch on the free spinning disks might not give us a change one one side when the direction is switched. Then again, dudlock's combo used a number than only had a 1-side change. I'll look and compare a few dimensions later.

I know it doesn't make much sense as is, but bear with me, I'll do what I can.

DudleyDoer, are you sure those are the points? I haven't seen any where the dial can't move at all... Does the lock look like a typical Dudley combo one, or... The design isn't that new, so it could be similar. I'll also need the counter-clockwise points to get any possible combo numbers (or spinning the dial opposite of whichever direction you tried before). By the way, the Dudley's we're working with are also brass, but coated in another metal (the shackle is solid, same colour throughout, but the "body" of the lock is brass under that shiny coat.

by **DudleyDoer** » 27 Jun 2005 13:43

Rechecked and here is a better description of the sticking points. It seems as the sticking points are the same both ways.
6.5-7.5
10-11
14-15
17.5-19.5
21-22
25-26
28.5-29.5
32-33.5
36-37
39-02

by **rayman452** » 27 Jun 2005 16:56

Can you get counterclockwise for that also? I'm back to this thread now that its summer vacation.

by **rayman452** » 29 Jun 2005 9:39

Ok, I'm going to attempt a new approch for a bit with these locks. I'm going to create a master list of all possible combinations for dudley locks, and I can't do this alone, there will be quite a few numbers. This is how I figure the calcualtions for all combinations, which someone posted earlier in this thread, but I can't find it.

Since there are 10 notches for the false gate, and since the first two dials are withen those 10 notches, we can calculate a maximum of 1000 combinations, provided that we can have a combination of 21-21-21 or similar. Now, I assume (I hope I'm right, someone prove me wrong please) that you won't have the same two numbers in a row, so you won't have 21-21-52 or 52-21-21. Furthermore, I assume you won't ever repeat a number, (someone please please prove me wrong) such as 21-53-24. They can come close, but not on the same gates. According to my calculations there are 72 possible differnt combinations including the third combination number, meaning 720 overall possible combinations. However, if we exclude the last number, since you can keep trying that, we are left with 90 possible combinations, which is quite good. However, for this "brute force attempt", I wish to have volunteers do all three numbers, for testing reasons. Now, that means I want some people to help me out with this crack, since me and orange can't do this all ourselves.

If you think you could help out, post here or PM me with your MSN handel or email, although it would help more if we got your MSN information.

Thanks to all who contact us.[/code]

by **Orange_Crusader** » 29 Jun 2005 15:11

Anyone's who's interested in helping with the Dudley cracking, can also add me (orangecrusader14(at)hotmail(dot)com) to their lists, and I'll be checking this thread and adding people as info is posted. Hoping to try every possible combo, narrowed down for a few locks, and seeing if any patterns come up. Rayman will be getting his charts into the mix, and we'll see what we can get. Sort of a Dudley cracking party, just with locks instead of booze or women :cry:

. I'll post a time for it later on, when it's decided. Hope to see many dudley team members (and other interested) there!

by **DudleyDoer** » 30 Jun 2005 10:11

Glad to help! Hey one thing I've noticed from looking at pictures is that the pointer location on the old dudleys differ when "Dudley" on the dial is horizontal. Could that mean anything?
rayman452, my sticking points seem the same counter clockwise.

by **rayman452** » 30 Jun 2005 11:59

What do you mean by pointer location is differnt? I have quite a few dudley locks, some brand new, and some old ones with the black face that my dad used when he was in school. What do oyu mean they line up differently? The only thing I can guess is that the lock wasn't put together well, but from what I've seen with oranges lock, some of the internals seem to differ...

The clockwise and counter-clockwise should be different, you should have slightly different possibilities each, please try it again. Also, if ou could PM me with your MSN, that would help us in getting oy the information you need ot know.

by **DudleyDoer** » 1 Jul 2005 15:27

On my lock,(circa 1929, 40 numbers, black face, unfinished brass case and dial),with with "Dudley" on the dial level, the pointer points to 34, not 0. Pictures of other old ones on Ebay again with "Dudley" on the dial level, have the pointer pointing to various other numbers.

by **rayman452** » 1 Jul 2005 19:35

If you have MSN messenger and want to give it to me, and work on it wiht me orange, and dudley, then we can get this done faster and more effictively. Would you like to join the suit?

by **maxim_mat** » 3 Jul 2005 9:08

hi, my name is maxim, I found this site through google and became interested, and I'd really try to help as much as possible.

by **uberw00t** » 6 Jul 2005 12:29

hey im new here and im really interested in what your doin.. i will be posting me like CW-CCW later as soon as i pull the duffle bag outta the garage that it is currently stuck to.

(btw i noticed your in cadets and in canada.. also went to alberta for a week.... did that happen to be banff alberta.... and whats ur sqrd #)

Dudley Combination Locks

Dudley Padlock Combinations

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