I saved my friend's life with lockpicking!

[Evan]

i almost take this replay as sarcasm mr evan... i know what bypasses are out there... and how they work... im curious to know if the fire dept is hoppin onto peterson-international.com or if theyd just use the axe... i deffinately dont need more info on the verboten topics you discuss... unless you think you have a meathod i havnt herd of or tried... unlikely... im not curious as to how to bypass a door, just how a fire dept does it... cause i feel they would cause more damage than what the op would have done...
i would say give that 911 call... and pick the door while you wait for the ambulance save your friend with immediate care and save them a few bucks by saving the door from the almost positively distructive meathod a fire dept would use... the op mentions a best deadbolt... if it were a rim cylinder deadbolt i dont know a bypass of the top of my head... not without being semi destructive at the least... if it were a mortise there may be a bypass... but im sure the fire dept wouldnt carry such a delicate tool in their bag of tricks...

Since NDE takes time, and time in Emergency Services is lives... No, the fire department would never rely on using lockpicks... If destructive entry to save lives became problematic then the fire department would just mandate the installation of a Knox key vault on every structure to facilitate NDE by means of a working key...

Unless you are a super lock picker or are very lucky, and you can have the door open in the 5 minutes (depending on where you are) it takes for the ambulance to arrive, you would just be in the way... You would be surprised at just how reinforced a door an experienced fire crew entry team can force open and how quickly they can do so with just the "irons"... When you think about some of the technical rescues fire departments get involved in these days using some hand tools to force a door is rather easy in comparison...

~~ Evan

[LocksmithArmy]

so what ur saying is... they dont actually bypass anything...they just break the door... like a burgaler... and 5 mins is quite a long time to pick especially on a standard house lock, granted a best is a lil more lucky but for most even decent pickers a kwikset (90% of residential america uses these) 5 mins is too long ... and i have never seen a fire dept or ambulance get there in 5 mins... in a city or rural area...
i lived literally half a mile from the fire dept (used to run there and back for a 1 mile run) when my car caught on fire it took them 30 mins to get there... my poor car burned to the ground
and how many times have you been stuck in traffic for 20 mins cause there was a crash and you finally see an ambulance fly by in the chicken lane...
weather its skill or luck picking a lock to make it easier on the rescue team is not a bad idea... if you cant pick it in 5 mins what did you hurt trying... if you get it.. yay...
and i dare say in a real bypass situation... its WAY faster than breaking the door (when a real bypass is applicable) it takes literally seconds to employ a real bypass versus how long to bust down a "reinforced" door. even a non reinforced door (like most people have) takes a few seconds to kick down id say unless they are using a shotgun to open a door (which is faster than even turning the handle) picking the door for them is a faster route. and again if you fail... who cares theyll open it... but they wont "bypass" anything... theyll bust it (which was my question in the first place... and was kindly answered)
and dont even start with "how do i know how long it takes to kick down a door" or "a shotgun cant open a door" cause these are both things im trained to do and have employed onmore than one life or death situation (usually death situations)

[Evan]

@LocksmithArmy:

Right, different destructive entry techniques for different types of workers in different situations with different objectives...

If you want NDE used on your premises you would need to apply for and be granted the installation/use of a fire department key box to be installed on your structure, no exceptions... In any situation where the emergency services are summoned to your property and a barrier to entry is presented, it is destroyed, unless a working key is immediately accessible to the first responders...

Police officers will bash a door in with a battering ram, fire fighters will lever it open using "irons" unless it is something which is a "bank vault" compared to a typical door construction where they would then progress through using a hand-operated Hydra-Ram and then a gas powered cut-off saw before abandoning trying to breach the door and using the last resort of breaking open a hole in a nearby wall instead... Military guys use explosives, firearms and kicking to open the door because that makes the most sense for them and their application, purpose and intentions...

The destruction methods used vary by why the door is being opened, what the biggest threat to the openers is and the intentions of the mission objectives under which the entry attempt is being made... Where the door is being opened against combatants (for police and military) the goal is an extremely rapid shock and awe entry to stun the opposition momentarily so that an opportunity to secure the area is possible without blood being shed on either side... However, if your combatant opponents are well prepared, barricaded, entrenched and prepared/equipped to deal with the standard entry methods, it is a very bad day for the first few guys through the door until someone starts tossing hand grenades inside to deal with the enemy combatant(s)... Then again that all hinges on your level of situational awareness and your methods might vary depending on what kind of specific intelligence you have on the people/threat/objective you were sent to eliminate, neutralize, secure or apprehend... Those kinds of entry introduce more risk to the entry team and are not acceptable uses of the government's exercise of power outside of a war zone or an arrest attempt being made on a very dangerous armed felon with a history of violence...

The fire department practices entry methods which are much less likely to injure a person needing to be rescued (which would create liability for injuries that rescued victim suffers) or a member of the service (who would be expensive to continue to pay the typical 75% disability pension until they die off over an permanent disability from an injury from kicking in a door which disqualifies them from further service) since fire departments open many many doors and other security barriers in the United States on a daily basis, utilizing such methods is not appropriate for them to use because of the sheer volume of risk and liability exposure to the tax payers...

It all comes down to what is an acceptable rate of loss in equipment and manpower in order to attain the mission objectives in the situation at hand... Since the military has very good medical coverage which is an integral part of the military organization, there is limited financial impact as far a member of the armed forces being injured in the performance of their duties... Whereas civilian (non-military) public safety employees would have to be admitted to a hospital and the treatment for the injuries covered by an insurance payout which may or may not have a deductible involved (which could have implications into training and how such situations are dealt with in the future if that agency wishes to maintain its insurance coverages) there is a direct financial impact and a loss of manpower which is much more difficult to overcome than an equivalent loss/injury incident within a military unit... Other fire fighters would have to work overtime to fill in for the injured worker, causing additional costs for the same level of service provided (i.e. paying the injured member as well as overtime for his/her manpower coverage to maintain the same staffing level) more expensive insurance premiums, being informed that future occurrences of this same event will no longer be covered under their policy and forcing department wide retraining on some technique or procedure which could cost tens of thousands of dollars or much more for the in-service training depending on the size of the department in question...

~~ Evan

[EmilyB]

What an awesome story! Do call 911 any time you have someone that sick but it can't hurt to have any barriers out of the way for the paramedics.

You kind of lost me there Evan. Surely SWAT is going to have a radically different approach but what can expect if I call paramedics? I am surprised this hasn't ever come up yet. I take care of disabled and mentally ill people, eventually I will not be there to let the paramedics in sometime when something goes wrong.(I get called 1st for falls, suicides etc.)

Emily

[unlisted]

What an awesome story! Do call 911 any time you have someone that sick but it can't hurt to have any barriers out of the way for the paramedics.

You kind of lost me there Evan. Surely SWAT is going to have a radically different approach but what can expect if I call paramedics? I am surprised this hasn't ever come up yet. I take care of disabled and mentally ill people, eventually I will not be there to let the paramedics in sometime when something goes wrong.(I get called 1st for falls, suicides etc.)

Emily

Hey Emily,

In the situation of paramedics showing up "first" - during the information gathering (phone call for emergency services) the dispatcher would do what is commonly called a "tired response" - where both ems and (normally) fire is dispatched at the same time. If there are "hazards on file" (past history of domestic violence, mental health concerns, assault, etc) at the address emergency services are going to, they would also have police attend.

95% of the time it will be Fire breaching the door. (even if PD are on scene) I've personally been in attendance once when it was police (swat) who breached a door, but that was due to them being called for two reasons: 1. possible suicide and said person was 2. barricaded within the house. (was not a fun call) At that point its more of a safety issue, and well, PD have guns, fire and EMS do not... (normally, but thats a whole other story..)


Hope this info helps ya. If you ever do come across the situation where you require access for a job, when you call emergency services let them know fire will be required for entry. (sometimes dispatchers/call takers forget that part) We (fire) love breaking stuff.. I mean.. opening doors.. LOL!

[spowers]

I have honestly never really been on a call where fire couldn't get in non destructively where I worked. Either there was a knox box or some other entry method was employed. The only times they broke stuff was at actual working fires and crashes. That was my experience at least. Either way she needed O2 and an IV at least.

[Evan]

I have honestly never really been on a call where fire couldn't get in non destructively where I worked. Either there was a knox box or some other entry method was employed. The only times they broke stuff was at actual working fires and crashes. That was my experience at least. Either way she needed O2 and an IV at least.

You are lucky to live in a community that makes use of the Knox Box Rapid Entry system key vaults... Not every community does...

Even in places were Knox systems are in use sometimes locks were re-keyed and a new set not provided to the fire department... The alarm going off means OR a 911 call for medical help means they don't wait outside -- that could mean damage is happening OR someone is dying locked inside while the fire engines and ambulance sit idle waiting on a keyholder...

In the event of a medical call, someone's life is worth a glass panel in a commercial door or a door and frame repair job in a door with no glass... If the door is a.) not open when the fire trucks and ambulances get there and b.) no one with keys is waiting as the trucks pull up, the door gets destroyed...

~~ Evan

[FFVison]

I guess another more obvious solution would be this: Call 911 and have the paramedics sent to the premises, and then wake up the R.A. and have him open the door. It might seem like something you don't want to do, but if having the ambulance (with sirens wailing) doesn't cause a scene that would wake up the R.A., I guarantee you that having the fire department smashing down the door probably will. Might as well save a few bucks on the door. Plus, on top of that, having the door open when the paramedics get there so they don't have to break down the door will save even more precious time.

[Scott_93]

I was once called to a house where there was a fear that the elderly woman who lived there was hurt. Police responded first and then so did I. The inspector in the control room authorised entry and I went ahead and gained entry Non-destructively. They went in, she was hurt and then paramedics were rolled out. Job was a good 'un and she made a full recovery. The inspector was more than happy to authorise me as ultimately they had no door to replace or property to try and secure

Scott.

[mccrotch]

Masterful!

I have not been able to pick a BEST lock myself, in fact I consider them the bane of my existence.

Congratulations on your success and enjoy your time being the hero