Medeco took me down hard

[monkeE]

I don't know about what Yip said about the sidebars. the rotations of the different pins are DEFINITELY different for each key and even between the master and slave over here. I think he was just saying there are different Medeco keyways. Im confused too now .

[yippeegollies]

Sorry guys, I'll try and make it more clear.

1) ALL medeco sidebars are EXACTLY the same and ALL medeco sidebars are completely interchangeable

2) The bottom tumbler has a slot cut into it that goes from the top of the tumbler all the way to the bottom of the tumbler. The tumbler has to be rotated correctly to allow the sidebar to fall into this slot.

3) OLD STYLE (non biaxial) medeco master keys and slave keys ALL have THE SAME ANGLES on the keys.

4) BIAXIAL medeco may have different angles on slave keys in a MK system because of the priciples on which biaxial works. (fore and aft cuts).
BUT... the master key will have ALL of the different angles from ALL of the different slave keys on it. So.....theoretically one could have a Grand Master Biaxial key with 12 cuts on it.

5) The center core (the small part where the key goes in) is the ONLY part of a medeco lock that will have anything different about it. And as long as you have the key to match this center core (or plug) then even these are completely interchangeable. (with other cylinders of the same type)

6) Different regions have different shaped keys assigned to them.

I hope I've made things a little more clear. If I can get my darn scanner working I will try and upload a picture of a medeco lock. I'll post this now and see if I've missed any points.

Yip

[n2oah]

Here is a site with some helpful pictures to go along with Yip's explaination.
http://dp.penix.org/locks/cl3.html (scroll down past the first picture)

[yippeegollies]

The patterns in the sidebars of Primus and ASSA twin are a result of their key control scheme. They distubute blanks and then the locks are pinned to them. Medeco blanks can be cut to the lock so there is no reason for a pattern to form.

You are partially correct. ASSA twin sidebars come in different patterns according to the region. The ASSA sidebar tumblers are all the same.

Primus sidebars are all the same. The difference is in the second set of tumblers (fingerpins is the correct term) that are lined up in order for the sidebar drop into place.

I'm going to say that again differently to be more clear.

ASSA= sidebar tumblers IDENTICAL, sidebars DIFFERENT patterns

PRIMUS= sidebar tumblers DIFFERENT, sidebars IDENTICAL

So they both do the same thing, just using a different component in the sidebar chain of events.

Yip

[yippeegollies]

Here is a site with some helpful pictures to go along with Yip's explaination.
http://dp.penix.org/locks/cl3.html (scroll down past the first picture)

Thanks n2oah. That is a GREAT series of pix.

Yip

[yippeegollies]

I just know one of you guys out there is gonna have a medeco vending machine lock and give me a hard time. And you're absolutely right, cam locks are a whole different animal, as are removable IC core locks. All of what I just said in previous posts only apllies to common garden variety cylinders. (rim, mortise, Key-in knobs, deadbolts)

Just in case someone is wondering, cam locks have only 1 spring and 1 tumbler in each chamber. These tumblers are all the same size. The only difference is there is a hole drilled in the side, in a different height and position depending on the depth of the cut and the rotation.

Yip

[yippeegollies]

http://www.toool.nl/competitie.wmv

Right click and "save as".

Interesting video. Thank you. Only one little point... Whoever did the titles on the movie labeled it incorrectly. That is definitely NOT a biaxial cylinder. It is an old style medeco. 00 keyway, standard commercial series. The original ones had some shortcomings and were considered pick-resistant but they could be picked. However that is still an impessive picking job in the video.

Yip

[vector40]

To clarify, I believe what yip's saying is that in most (MOST) sidebar locks, the sidebar itself is just a component -- the metal bits don't differ and they aren't lock-specific. Instead, on a Medeco, a Primus, et al., the mechanism which engages the sidebar (cuts on the sides of the bottom pins, an extra bitting, whatever) is what varies.

[yippeegollies]

To clarify, I believe what yip's saying is that in most (MOST) sidebar locks, the sidebar itself is just a component -- the metal bits don't differ and they aren't lock-specific. Instead, on a Medeco, a Primus, et al., the mechanism which engages the sidebar (cuts on the sides of the bottom pins, an extra bitting, whatever) is what varies.

Exactly! (shoulda talked to you first.....could of saved myself half an hour of typing by using your summary)

Yip

[monkeE]

Thanks, Yip, for the half hour of typing though, it was really insightful. There is a cutout biaxial Medeco at a local locksmith shop I'm gonna go look at in aw and wonder now.

[n2oah]

Don't worry Yip, I'm here to make it difficult.

[vector40]

Oh man... a cutout Medeco? Where'd he get that?

[n2oah]

Oh man... a cutout Medeco? Where'd he get that?

If you are a professional I guess you could just say, "Well, (name of Medeco Sales rep.) I am interested in selling your products, so if you could send me some promotional material, that would be great"

[yippeegollies]

Oooops... there are 5 pin sidebars and 6 pin sidebars

Yip

[foo]

the rotations of the different pins are DEFINITELY different for each key and even between the master and slave over here.

You're saying you've seen Medeco BiAxial keys with different cut angles that open the same lock?

This is a big suprise to me. Masterkeyed medeco cylinders that I've seen only involved different cut depths, not different cut angles.

What you're describing would require two vertical grooves on each such pin, with increased manufacturing cost (more grooves == more $$), and decreased security (more grooves == more ways to open).

Where is "over here"?