Making an unpickable Lock

[donut_king]

Me and a friend were tossing around a few ideas in a bar a few years back about an "unpickable lock" and although we didn't make any real and practical solutions, I will share one thing we had in mind:

Imagine a lock which has a 6 pin tumbler configuaration. It would probably have mushroom pins just to make it a tad more difficult. The lock itself has two plugs each with a double shearline with the upper plug only engaging a sidebar once after the lower plug has been rotated 270 degrees.

The upper plug would be constructed similar to a Bi-Lock's sidebars but with a total of 6 placed evenly around which would set 1 position each time the the lower plug moved 270 degrees.

Confused yet? we were too but we had drink coasters and lead pencils to sketch as we were chatting which made it a little easier.

Basically, if you didnt have a key for this lock, you would need to pick it atleast 24 times with each time become exponentially harder as you go.

I know this seems impossible, and probably is, but im doing up some sketches now to give you an idea of what I have in mind. Ill post them once theyre done.

Please feel free to offer objections as I'm sure there will be many. I like having flaws in my ideas pointed out so that i can fix them.

-Stu

[donut_king]

oops, forgot to mention that it was a working idea, and I point out that this particular lock at this stage would not be "unpickable" - just a pain in the butt.

Take care I'll have those sketches soon.

-stu

[PickslikeRodenbarr]

I got an idea

How about a wafer tumbler lock. Now cut a sheer line spot on each, so each tumblers in 3 pieces (top and bottom)

Now add a metal bar to it so the tumblers cant go all the way below the sheer line into the cylander.

When you put a key in the sheer lines have to line up, you can't just pull all the tumblers into the chamber (not hard on a regular lock, a hacksaw blade cut in half hamburger and hotdog + a torque wrench and the cars opened)

Now you have a cheap, hard to pick lock.

[Guitar_J]

Here's one... Might have been done.. I dunno...

It's not a difficult design, just the combination of 2 types of locks,

How about a lock, one that has been mentioned on here where you have pin stacks every 90 degrees where the tail piece turns the dial for a combination lock. Therefore the key would become the knob for the lock, it must be inserted and then rotated to the correct numbers in order for it to open, that, while not impossible, would be a tough lock to defeat, even if it was a low security lock like a Kwikset, this would defeat the use of a plug spinner on such a lock and would add an extra bit of security in that the user must know the combo to open it, the number of times you'd have to pick it would vary depending on the combinatoin, for a one like 12-34-20 it would be something like 11 times, thats not including turning it 3 times to clear the discs, throw those in there and it's like 25 times you'd have to pick it to open it knowing the numbers.

[mcm757207]

Yeah, I was thinking of that idea the other day. Put a medeco cylinder in there, a nice 4 disk S&G lock, and some hardened inserts on a safe and no1's gunna be getting in there any time soon.

[Romstar]

Drill the lock, and manipulate as normal.

Make that part difficult, and you have something going.

Use a mechanism similar to the X-09 combination lock, with a hardened multi-pin cylinder turning the dial.

The X-09 is a bear of a lock in the first place, and adding something like needing a key to simply turn the dial really makes for some fun stuff. Especially if you manage to make the cylinder drill resistant.

Romstar

[hackerz]

I was thinking you could combine that "combanation" thing with a tubular lock and a normal lock...

kinda like where the key is the nob for the combanation but where it connects to the combanation it would have a tubular lock... and the only thing that can really break the tubular part would be those special pics, but when your doing that... then you can't pick the sidepart...

course you could also add something where "the last pin moved, a peice of metal would "lock" across the key, so that if it were akey, then it would hold the key in until it turned... but if it was something else, like a pick, or something else, it woudl trap the picks into the acual lock... and let's say.. freeze them there for a few hours.

[Guitar_J]

how about something like this

You have a tubular lock, larger than standard, in the middle of this tubular lock there is a Mul-T-Lock or some other high security lock, and with the proper key, you still have to enter a combination to open the lock... 3 locks in one... Tubular, Larger than standard so the Store bought picks woudln't work on it.. perhaps even more pins.. 10 or 12 even... a hardcore lock like the Mul-T-Lock! or some very hard to defeat lock... and then knowledge of the combination is still required... heh... I dunno.. perhaps this is going too far... but it is still an interesting idea to toss around...

[frollard]

thats an absolutely sweet idea! and keep the 'key' in another safe, right next to it ....aye yie yie...I'm gonna make one! (just need a mul-t-lock)

[Guitar_J]

Yes... and surrounding the key in the safe is a timed bomb that activates when the door is opened, you have 10 seconds to enter the correct code or BOOOOOOOOOOOM, and if you make it by that there is a hornet's nest inside also... just for fun

OHH NO! Even better! instead of it being the actual key, there will be about 20 halves of a mold, and you have to combine the correct halves... and pour the junk in to make the key... Or even 1/4 of the whole mold.. Yes.... YES... of course there would still be the hornet's nest (just for kicks) and the bomb...

[frollard]

and a string tied around the nest, to the door, so they get pissed off when you open it.



might be a problem.

but the just plain combo idea is sweet. I would have one!

[Super Sadist]

I have been thinking about this for awhile and will try to explain as best as i can and possibly include some pics later if i can get around to it..here it goes

Insted of having pins on the top, bottom or both it would have pins on all four sides and there would be six pins on each. The key wouldnt be shaped like a + it would be square shaped.

AND the the part where the pins are held would be slightly tilted in the way you have to turn the key so there would be no part for the pins to catch on when you apply tension and pick at it.

Maybe im ignorant, maybe it would work, I dont know

[zaphar]

Well, one way to discourage picking of the lock is to make an array of locks that act as one, such as 3 pin tumblers that all need to be aligned at the same time. You are probably wondering what I'm blabbering about but I find this idea kind of intriguing. Well you wouldn't be able to turn three keys at once but that wouldn't matter, just them holding the pins in the right position would matter. The pin tumblers are aligned in a triangle formation and each have a gear attached to the middle of the tumbler and then a larger gear is located in between all of them (in the center of the triangle). And if you really wanted to make it annoying to pick make it so you have to turn it once with each key, but make it so you have to take out the key before it before you give it a turn. so basically you would put the three keys in, turn the first one and take it out, turn the second one and take it out, and the same with the third one. This would be extremely difficult to pick in my opinion, because to unlock it you would have to pick all three locks which would be difficult to put tension on (depending on how tight the gears are) and even if you managed to pick all of them you would have to find some way to make them say still for the entire duration of the picking time so you would have to use many cans of the freezing stuff to keep them in place. Yes this is not unpickable but it would be extremely annoying and difficult to pick. You could use any tumblers I guess so you could use three high security ones and just use those to make things even more difficult....

[Mad Mick]

I've been thinking about this idea since viewing the last post from zaphar, and have come up with an abridged version:

Have an array of at least three, or more, pin tumbler (or any other combination of different types of) cyls in a triangular/quad/quin...etc. configuration, directly geared to a central mechanism which controls the actual lock ass'y. Instead of having to turn each cyl for one full rotation to open the lock, it requires that a key be present in each cyl. This serves that all pins (wafers, discs, what-ever) be at the shear line simultaneously for the mechanism to operate. Any one key turning the mechanism will, in turn, operate the keys in the remaining cyls.

Imagine an assembly containing an Abloy Protec, a Medeco biaxial, a BiLock and a Kaba Gemini...

To all of us here...with the keys removed...unpickable. To a chosen few who may have the capabilities to defeat this thing...your name may be, but mine is definitely not 'Bond'!

Imagine the rig required to apply tension to this setup...confuse this with random lock placement, and the probability of a successful opening is reduced considerably.

Impossible...maybe not. Time consuming...well, you wanna try?

[kjj]

There is a guy at the office who has designed an "unpickable" lock with 16-32 finshes on each surface and a +/- .00001 deviation on the straighness of the pins. The pins would be constructed of a treated titanium alloy, meaning that a torque of a couple hundred pounds would be neccessary to produce the deformation required for the pins to set. It uses a miniature hydraulic system in replacement of the springs, causing the lock to "lock down" in case it is drilled. The only downside? Each lock would cost roughly $5,000 each....

Slight problem...

Once the lock is made that strong, it opens up a new weakness. Right now, electric pick guns are pretty weak to prevent the soft bits from turning to powder.

Once the pins are made of titanium, you just turn the power on your pick gun from stun to kill. (Also, since the springs have been replaced with fluid, they too are now immune to damage.)

Now that all the pins are bouncing really fast, as long as they aren't synchronized (tip your gun so the pins all move in different strokes and thus have different periods) at some point they will by pure chance all be at the shear line at the same time.

Since the lock is so strong, you can apply enough torque to the cylinder to spin it at that instant without breaking anything.