Making an unpickable Lock

[kjj]

Does anyone have any friends in the Navy that can describe the key used to secure the transmission room?

[hzatorsk]

No... But I can describe his sidearm.

[Pheniox]

Does anyone have any friends in the Navy that can describe the key used to secure the transmission room?

Quite a stupid question, namly with me being an IT in the navy AND a mod on this site.

No... But I can describe his sidearm.

Actually, no firearms are allowed in/around radio. My picks are allowed, on the other hand. Topside rover carrys a M14, and thats about all I can say.

[brosskgm]

Hogh Security lock cylinder utilizing interlocking pins. The lock is manufactured by Corbin/Russwin.

The lock is pin tumbler. ALL of the pins have to be flush or even.

The pins rotate when the key is put in and the pins have to rotate at the precise angle in order for the pins to seperate.

The key has to be cut at special 20deg angles to turn the pins.

If you don't have a key, you will find this impossible to pick because the pick can't turn the pins. Only push up. They even have three armor rods, and armor plate to prevent drilling.

Good luck.

[mbell]

That sounds remarkably like a Medeco.

There are always ways...

[PickPick]

The medeco employs side bars. The lock described uses AFAIK pins that have a swallow tail slot cut into the bottom of the core pins which mate with the corresponding shapes on top of the case pins. Therefore the pins have to be at the correct angle so they can seperate once they are at the correct height.

[Mila]

I like the threading idea, but wouldn't that impair actual lock function, if using keys?

[PickPick]

AFAIK the core and the top of the key have notches cut into them through which the tops of the pins can pass when turning. Unfortunately I've only got my hands on one of these once and just for a minute, so I can only tell you what I've read and seen at that time. , I'd sure love to own/pick one of these.

[mcm757207]

I always thought it would be interesting to add serrations to the inside of the pin chamber, as well as the driver pins. That would make it a nightmare to pick.

[mbell]

I read in LSS+ that some locks actually have serrations in the pin holes, sometimes in addition to serrated top and bottom pins. Now that would be a nightmare!

[jessopher]

This is a pretty old thread, and probably no one is paying any attention to it, but i think ill comment anyhow. In the spirit of the guy talking about hard to break encryption, why not just apply the computer scientists blanket solution to securty problems... large (complex) keys. How about a lock where the keyway is tubular, and the key sets them with dimples. theres a slotted rod that keeps the pins from shooting out into the plug, and acts as a tension point, as well as a guide to keep the key from going in at the wrong angle. the key could be about the size of your fist, and the cylinder could house some 100+ pins. When they set , the plug pushes in some amount, determined by the space between rows/rings of pins, and then is free to rotate. Not only would it take a long time to set all the pins, it would probably take quite a while to work out the order in which they bind. Pickable, but i dont see how it could be done in any practical amount of time. It seems to me the dificulty of picking pin tumblers grows nonlinearly as the number of pins increases.

I'm still pretty green, so this might be utter crap, but i don't think so.

A key ring full of fist sized keys might also be a problem....

[raimundo]

First, having read most of the first 5 pages on this thread, I want to dispach the 3 section cylinder. everyone who said pick only the last section is right, tensor for this would be quite easy, Second, the concept changes a 6 pin lock into a consecutive series of two pin locks, therefore makeing it much easier to pick, I think it could be knocked off easily with a 3 point bogota pick and a long tensor. Kehelvis Idea of the dimple binding lock is good, I think this idea has already been made not as a lock, but as a 1950s era telephone switching arrangement used at substations, as you dialed the telephone, each number is entered by clicking one switch bar up another notch for each pulse sent from the dial. But the idea is good. About using a tap to put groves in the upper pin channels, these grooves would impead not only the lifting of the pins but also the falling back, and could actually make it easier. On the last page, some navy lock is discussed, I say google 'emhart cylinder' to look for a diagram of what is described.
Now, about perfect fit machineing, there is a reason that locks have tolerances, if the plug fit perfectly in the cylinder, with not a gap, the plug would be press fit and immobile, there must be room to make sure that a grain of the finest sand cannot permanently jam the lock, tolerance is ablsolutely necessary. there is even more tolerance in the pin channels and the diameter of the pins. this gives the step that picking uses, but the pins must move easily by spring pressure or gravity, as you tighten the tolerances, you grip the pins.
Locks are designed to work reliably in spite of dirt and wear on the pins and keys.
That said, why does a key have to turn, it sets the lock to open just by being inserted, turning it only exposes it to being broken off and resquires it to have a large bow, that makes a ring of keys more heavy and bulky.

[raimundo]

On page 5 kuju mentions a fiberoptic lock, to this I would only say look up ilco Marlock, to see if it hasn't already been done.

[kehveli]

Kehelvis Idea of the dimple binding lock is good, I think this idea has already been made not as a lock, but as a 1950s era telephone switching arrangement used at substations, as you dialed the telephone, each number is entered by clicking one switch bar up another notch for each pulse sent from the dial.

I'm glad that you like my idea. The concept of it was to prevent manipulating the pins while applying tension which seems to be the main theory of lockpicking. Of course my designed could be picked (actually decoding would be easier). Impressioning would also be a way to open this design.

Now when I think about it, the thing mentioned by mbell (serrated pins&pin chambers) does pretty much the same than my design, perhaps even better.

Further continuing theory, fundamentals of picking a lock come from the fact that the force used to check the key (=test if the pin combination is correct) comes from the key itself (in a pin tumbler this means the force used to turn the cylinder applies to the pins). This forms the concept of applying tension and feeling feedback.

Would it be possible to somehow get the key-checking force from a spring inside the lock itself? To prove the point that using force from a spring versus force from key let's just compare combination locks. I think the reason why opening a combination padlock is a lot easier than safe combination lock is just this. On a combination padlock one can apply direct tension to fence. On a safe-grade combination lock (direct-entry fence locks excluded here) direct tension cannot be applied and thus the force only comes from the spring. This makes the opening of those a lot harder than combination padlocks. Some group 1 combination locks prevent the measuring of fence depth by preventing the contact of lever nose and cam gate before the fence is already in the contact region. This prevents a challenge even for the most experienced.

In conclusion the best method to deter picking would be to somehow make it hard to apply direct tension and lock the moving parts while such tension is applied (for example Abloy Protec). By looking scientifically one can see the same improvements made in many different locks. For example serrating has been used in pin tumblers and safe grade lever locks.

The idea of using a spring that i mentioned would probably be too fragile. I mean a temperature change could easily jam the lock. This brings us to square one, locks need to be practical and economic to be used at a larger scale. Raimundo also made a valid point that if a lock would be manufactured to tight tolerances, it would be very easily jammed.

[NKT]

Agreed. The guy with the $5000 lock made of .0001" toleranced titanium and steel is not going to be opening it unless the temperature is just right! A little corrosion is going to make it seize.

The split cylinder idea would be trivial to beat, since the first two pins would be picked, and left slightly off line, then the next two picked, etc. This is why high security locks have more pins, because it is harder to line up six than two.

Anyone who suggests a seven keyed bonanza lock is *not* going to be a big seller, since no-one wants seven extra keys that need another briefcase to carry.

I would suggest having the standard (Medco?) high security system, with pins that require twisting to the right angle as well as height. To make it yet harder, a row of pins that pops out from the side, and engages the dimples in the side of the key at the same time as the teeth along the top. Set those up so that until the top bits align, they have no spring behind them.
Any pick would fail, because you would push the top pins as per normal, and then, once it was picked, the pins to the side would be randomly lined up - you couldn't pick them, as they would not return if pushed, without also moving the top pin. As the lock starts to turn, these side pins block it, since they actually interact with the top pins! A key would be just the right shape to hold these interlinked pins.

I have a small safe with an x cross-sectioned key, which I have yet to beat... but then I can't do a standard Yale front door lock yet! (At least not with the spool pins in it) I've not tried much, since I've only ever seen two in my life. It might be really easy.

The disc/tubular locks were thought of as high security for a while, now they are the last thing I would choose! If I can beat it in 20 minutes with a small allen key, a pro should take under 5. ...and now I've seen video with pen tops in 4 seconds...

The best security today is, if wildly adopted, likely to get beaten tomorrow, as it then becomes common, and more minds become focused on beating it... and then a way is found.